A little long but am looking for information and confirmation.

Well... My weekend is is going to be wasted. I need to babysit my
"grand-dog" since daughter and son-in-law need to be out of town for a
bio-chem conference (for her). I was going to take 'Big Dog' north
for the weekend then stay at their place next week to baby sit ....
e.g. spend evenings and nights there and commute from their house to
work each day ...

However ... a problem.

Big Dog, a Great Dane ... 18 months and 180 pounds was recently
neutered ... three weeks ago and is experiencing a number of problems
subsequent to surgery; swollen scrotum, open wound, swelling,
bleeding and drainage.

My daughter is a mess of guilt since she was the one pushing for the
procedure ... to calm him down and keep some semblence of order in the
home. Son-in-law was insisting that procedure could not be done until
"he (the dog, that is) had achieved his maximum growth".

This violates all that I have ever learned about animals and pets. I
believe that:

a) you neuter young ... 4-6 months (and it is absolute bull that
animal has to achieve physical maturity first)
b) by waiting until 18 months old, they have created this problem,
that would probably not have existed had it been done at the
appropriate age.

As an aside ... it was never their intent to breed or show the dog.

Can anyone give me any insight into my thinking on this ...pro or con.

Plus, their vet has explained their myriad of problems by "this
happens once in a thousand times" ... I translate this into possibly
that ... "I screw up a surgery once in a thousand times ... OOOOps"

Any help or explanation would be appreciated.

fisherman ... and dog sitter ....

There's really no *one* appropriate age. Puppies can be neutered at 6 weeks
(but shelters are pretty much the only ones doing that). There's no wrong
age to neuter, that's for certain. Its ideal to do it around the age of 6
months for several reasons. Neutering does tend to effect behavior and can
help diminish any would-be problems later. It definitely helps to keep the
dog from marking. It definitely helps to keep the dog from smelling a bitch
in heat somewhere in the neighborhood and doing whatever it takes to leave
the yard and go find her.

Our rescue neuters every male that comes through and there's absolutely no
reason for an open wound, bleeding or oozing, swelling or discomfort 3 weeks
after the procedure. If they bleed, its normally from torn stitches. If
there's oozing & swelling, that's sign of infection. IMO, these problems
have nothing to do with the neuter procedure so much as either A) the
procedure being poorly performed or B) the Dane pulled his stitches and was
allowed to become infected without receiving follow-up attention.

--
Tara

There's really no *one* appropriate age. Puppies can be neutered at 6 weeks
(but shelters are pretty much the only ones doing that). There's no wrong
age to neuter, that's for certain. Its ideal to do it around the age of 6
months for several reasons. Neutering does tend to effect behavior and can
help diminish any would-be problems later. It definitely helps to keep the
dog from marking. It definitely helps to keep the dog from smelling a bitch
in heat somewhere in the neighborhood and doing whatever it takes to leave
the yard and go find her.

Our rescue neuters every male that comes through and there's absolutely no
reason for an open wound, bleeding or oozing, swelling or discomfort 3 weeks
after the procedure. If they bleed, its normally from torn stitches. If
there's oozing & swelling, that's sign of infection. IMO, these problems
have nothing to do with the neuter procedure so much as either A) the
procedure being poorly performed or B) the Dane pulled his stitches and was
allowed to become infected without receiving follow-up attention.

--
Tara

On 7 Oct 2003 16:54:02 -0700, (fisherman) wrote:

[...]
a) you neuter young ... 4-6 months (and it is absolute bull that
animal has to achieve physical maturity first)
b) by waiting until 18 months old, they have created this problem,
that would probably not have existed had it been done at the
appropriate age.

As an aside ... it was never their intent to breed or show the dog.

Can anyone give me any insight into my thinking on this ...pro or con.

Plus, their vet has explained their myriad of problems by "this
happens once in a thousand times" ... I translate this into possibly
that ... "I screw up a surgery once in a thousand times ... OOOOps"

A dog definitely does not have to be mature before neutering. The age debate
exists, but most people will settle for six months or older. I have read a few
articles supporting "pediatric sterilization."

The owners's procrastination did not cause this dog's problems; not at 18
months. I was thinking "botched surgical procedure" long before I reached the
end of your post.

From the sound of things, this veterinarian got off really easy. My vet would
still be explaining why such a routine procedure went to wrong. As for "one in
a thousand" I say it's too many.

Michael

A dog that will not or should not be used for breeding should be sterilized
early.

Whatever it takes.

On 7 Oct 2003 16:54:02 -0700, (fisherman) wrote:

[...]
a) you neuter young ... 4-6 months (and it is absolute bull that
animal has to achieve physical maturity first)
b) by waiting until 18 months old, they have created this problem,
that would probably not have existed had it been done at the
appropriate age.

As an aside ... it was never their intent to breed or show the dog.

Can anyone give me any insight into my thinking on this ...pro or con.

Plus, their vet has explained their myriad of problems by "this
happens once in a thousand times" ... I translate this into possibly
that ... "I screw up a surgery once in a thousand times ... OOOOps"

A dog definitely does not have to be mature before neutering. The age debate
exists, but most people will settle for six months or older. I have read a few
articles supporting "pediatric sterilization."

The owners's procrastination did not cause this dog's problems; not at 18
months. I was thinking "botched surgical procedure" long before I reached the
end of your post.

From the sound of things, this veterinarian got off really easy. My vet would
still be explaining why such a routine procedure went to wrong. As for "one in
a thousand" I say it's too many.

Michael

A dog that will not or should not be used for breeding should be sterilized
early.

Whatever it takes.

"fisherman" wrote in message
om...
A little long but am looking for information and confirmation.

Well... My weekend is is going to be wasted. I need to babysit my
"grand-dog" since daughter and son-in-law need to be out of town for a
bio-chem conference (for her). I was going to take 'Big Dog' north
for the weekend then stay at their place next week to baby sit ....
e.g. spend evenings and nights there and commute from their house to
work each day ...

However ... a problem.

Big Dog, a Great Dane ... 18 months and 180 pounds was recently
neutered ... three weeks ago and is experiencing a number of problems
subsequent to surgery; swollen scrotum, open wound, swelling,
bleeding and drainage.

My daughter is a mess of guilt since she was the one pushing for the
procedure ... to calm him down and keep some semblence of order in the
home. Son-in-law was insisting that procedure could not be done until
"he (the dog, that is) had achieved his maximum growth".

This violates all that I have ever learned about animals and pets. I
believe that:

a) you neuter young ... 4-6 months (and it is absolute bull that
animal has to achieve physical maturity first)
b) by waiting until 18 months old, they have created this problem,
that would probably not have existed had it been done at the
appropriate age.

As an aside ... it was never their intent to breed or show the dog.

Can anyone give me any insight into my thinking on this ...pro or con.

Plus, their vet has explained their myriad of problems by "this
happens once in a thousand times" ... I translate this into possibly
that ... "I screw up a surgery once in a thousand times ... OOOOps"

Any help or explanation would be appreciated.

fisherman ... and dog sitter ....

Most, but not all, post surgical complications on large dogs can be laid
squarely at the door of the owners. Large dogs need restricted activity for
at least two weeks post surgery, and most folks just don't have the patience
to leash walk and otherwise confine an animal that long. They let them out
into the yard unsupervised, or can't stand the whining or think it's "cruel"
to kennel them. The scrotum is just an empty sack and can fill up with
blood and fluid if the animal is too active or gets the incision wet, which
is an invitation to infection. Males need elizabethan collars to keep them
from incessantly licking the area, and too many owners won't use them. Yes,
you are correct in saying that the trauma is much less on a smaller
dog/puppy, and that waiting until he was "mature" probably helped to
contribute to the problems he is having. The younger an animial is the
quicker it heals from surgery, and frankly removing testicles that weigh 1
ounce is a lot easier on any animal than waiting until they are half
pounders.

You don't even want to know about the owners of a 7 year old Rott mix who
*let him go swimming in the pool* because "we had to let him out". The poor
dog had to come back in and have the scrotum removed as it had filled up
completely with blood. They didn't respond to any of our *several* followup
calls, so who knows if the animal survived the owner's inability to leash
walk the poor beast.

Sunflower

"fisherman" wrote in message
om...
A little long but am looking for information and confirmation.

Well... My weekend is is going to be wasted. I need to babysit my
"grand-dog" since daughter and son-in-law need to be out of town for a
bio-chem conference (for her). I was going to take 'Big Dog' north
for the weekend then stay at their place next week to baby sit ....
e.g. spend evenings and nights there and commute from their house to
work each day ...

However ... a problem.

Big Dog, a Great Dane ... 18 months and 180 pounds was recently
neutered ... three weeks ago and is experiencing a number of problems
subsequent to surgery; swollen scrotum, open wound, swelling,
bleeding and drainage.

My daughter is a mess of guilt since she was the one pushing for the
procedure ... to calm him down and keep some semblence of order in the
home. Son-in-law was insisting that procedure could not be done until
"he (the dog, that is) had achieved his maximum growth".

This violates all that I have ever learned about animals and pets. I
believe that:

a) you neuter young ... 4-6 months (and it is absolute bull that
animal has to achieve physical maturity first)
b) by waiting until 18 months old, they have created this problem,
that would probably not have existed had it been done at the
appropriate age.

As an aside ... it was never their intent to breed or show the dog.

Can anyone give me any insight into my thinking on this ...pro or con.

Plus, their vet has explained their myriad of problems by "this
happens once in a thousand times" ... I translate this into possibly
that ... "I screw up a surgery once in a thousand times ... OOOOps"

Any help or explanation would be appreciated.

fisherman ... and dog sitter ....

Most, but not all, post surgical complications on large dogs can be laid
squarely at the door of the owners. Large dogs need restricted activity for
at least two weeks post surgery, and most folks just don't have the patience
to leash walk and otherwise confine an animal that long. They let them out
into the yard unsupervised, or can't stand the whining or think it's "cruel"
to kennel them. The scrotum is just an empty sack and can fill up with
blood and fluid if the animal is too active or gets the incision wet, which
is an invitation to infection. Males need elizabethan collars to keep them
from incessantly licking the area, and too many owners won't use them. Yes,
you are correct in saying that the trauma is much less on a smaller
dog/puppy, and that waiting until he was "mature" probably helped to
contribute to the problems he is having. The younger an animial is the
quicker it heals from surgery, and frankly removing testicles that weigh 1
ounce is a lot easier on any animal than waiting until they are half
pounders.

You don't even want to know about the owners of a 7 year old Rott mix who
*let him go swimming in the pool* because "we had to let him out". The poor
dog had to come back in and have the scrotum removed as it had filled up
completely with blood. They didn't respond to any of our *several* followup
calls, so who knows if the animal survived the owner's inability to leash
walk the poor beast.

Sunflower

Plus, their vet has explained their myriad of problems by "this
happens once in a thousand times" ... I translate this into possibly
that ... "I screw up a surgery once in a thousand times ... OOOOps"

Any help or explanation would be appreciated.

fisherman ... and dog sitter ....

To remove the testicles through the incision, a ligament needs to be
broken-- it is often
torn. The older the dog, the tougher this ligament is to break. When the
testicles are removed, the
scrotum becomes an empty sack.So yes, neutering an older , larger dog is
more liking to lead to post-op swelling and irritation to the dog
(encouraging licking and therefore more swelling.) The scrotum is also
larger on a mature Dane-- therefore a larger sack to fill with any minor
bleeding and swelling from the surgery and from movement post-op -- i.e.--
running around in the house, licking the surgical site, etc. It is, in my
opinion, a result of the individual, sometimes bleeding tendencies such as
vonWillebrands, and amount of ongoing "injury"-- movement and self-induced
trauma, and not likely to be the fault of the vet - (sometimes there is so
much scrotal swelling a procedure call "scrotal ablation" is done to
eliminate this area of loose skin if there is a lot of excessive and
uncomfortable swelling)

Plus, their vet has explained their myriad of problems by "this
happens once in a thousand times" ... I translate this into possibly
that ... "I screw up a surgery once in a thousand times ... OOOOps"

Any help or explanation would be appreciated.

fisherman ... and dog sitter ....

To remove the testicles through the incision, a ligament needs to be
broken-- it is often
torn. The older the dog, the tougher this ligament is to break. When the
testicles are removed, the
scrotum becomes an empty sack.So yes, neutering an older , larger dog is
more liking to lead to post-op swelling and irritation to the dog
(encouraging licking and therefore more swelling.) The scrotum is also
larger on a mature Dane-- therefore a larger sack to fill with any minor
bleeding and swelling from the surgery and from movement post-op -- i.e.--
running around in the house, licking the surgical site, etc. It is, in my
opinion, a result of the individual, sometimes bleeding tendencies such as
vonWillebrands, and amount of ongoing "injury"-- movement and self-induced
trauma, and not likely to be the fault of the vet - (sometimes there is so
much scrotal swelling a procedure call "scrotal ablation" is done to
eliminate this area of loose skin if there is a lot of excessive and
uncomfortable swelling)

I have also heard many that put off neutering of the larger breeds until
later on. Some have a true concern of making sure all of the growthplates
fuse well and some vets will tell them to wait.

There was a big debate about this on a bullmastiff board. Some truly
believe the later neutering is better, so your son-in-law did not make that
up.

But, I do my females at 6 months.

"fisherman" wrote in message
om...
A little long but am looking for information and confirmation.

Well... My weekend is is going to be wasted. I need to babysit my
"grand-dog" since daughter and son-in-law need to be out of town for a
bio-chem conference (for her). I was going to take 'Big Dog' north
for the weekend then stay at their place next week to baby sit ....
e.g. spend evenings and nights there and commute from their house to
work each day ...

However ... a problem.

Big Dog, a Great Dane ... 18 months and 180 pounds was recently
neutered ... three weeks ago and is experiencing a number of problems
subsequent to surgery; swollen scrotum, open wound, swelling,
bleeding and drainage.

My daughter is a mess of guilt since she was the one pushing for the
procedure ... to calm him down and keep some semblence of order in the
home. Son-in-law was insisting that procedure could not be done until
"he (the dog, that is) had achieved his maximum growth".

This violates all that I have ever learned about animals and pets. I
believe that:

a) you neuter young ... 4-6 months (and it is absolute bull that
animal has to achieve physical maturity first)
b) by waiting until 18 months old, they have created this problem,
that would probably not have existed had it been done at the
appropriate age.

As an aside ... it was never their intent to breed or show the dog.

Can anyone give me any insight into my thinking on this ...pro or con.

Plus, their vet has explained their myriad of problems by "this
happens once in a thousand times" ... I translate this into possibly
that ... "I screw up a surgery once in a thousand times ... OOOOps"

Any help or explanation would be appreciated.

fisherman ... and dog sitter ....