"LeeCharlesKelley" wrote in
lkaboutpets.com:

Marcel
I just want to make sure that I understand what is going on here.
If you are walking Fred, and another dog owner says to not let your dog
come near their dog, you allow Fred to do it anyways.

Depends on the dog's owner. If they seem really freaked out, no. If
they're willing to listen to reason, then yes.

But the question is, do you get them to listen to reason before or after
you have let Fred interact with their dog?

--
Marcel and Moogli

Marcel:But the question is, do you get them to listen to reason before or
after you have let Fred interact with their dog?

Depends on what you mean by interact. Usually it's before Fred comes
close enough to be a problem for them, emotionally. Sometimes the fact
that the other dog isn't showing the usual signs of aggression that the
owner is used to kind of throws them off and they start to realize on
their own that there isn't going to be a problem.

Marcel:But the question is, do you get them to listen to reason before or
after you have let Fred interact with their dog?

Depends on what you mean by interact. Usually it's before Fred comes
close enough to be a problem for them, emotionally. Sometimes the fact
that the other dog isn't showing the usual signs of aggression that the
owner is used to kind of throws them off and they start to realize on
their own that there isn't going to be a problem.

Marcel:But the question is, do you get them to listen to reason before or
after you have let Fred interact with their dog?

Depends on what you mean by interact. Usually it's before Fred comes
close enough to be a problem for them, emotionally. Sometimes the fact
that the other dog isn't showing the usual signs of aggression that the
owner is used to kind of throws them off and they start to realize on
their own that there isn't going to be a problem.

Marcel:But the question is, do you get them to listen to reason before or
after you have let Fred interact with their dog?

Depends on what you mean by interact. Usually it's before Fred comes
close enough to be a problem for them, emotionally. Sometimes the fact
that the other dog isn't showing the usual signs of aggression that the
owner is used to kind of throws them off and they start to realize on
their own that there isn't going to be a problem.

LeeCharlesKelley wrote:

When my dog and I go walking I'll often get an invitation from another
dog's owner, "Oh, my dog is very friendly! Can't he come say hello?" And
if Fred wants to keep his distance, I let him because every time I've
forced the issue the other dog tried to attack Fred, and the dog's owner
would say something like, "I've never seen my dog *act* like this before!"
Maybe not, but Fred instinctively knew the other dog better than his
owner did.

Honestly, it would be nice if Fred would extend this courtesy to others.
He has approached a number of dogs (offlead) on the streets of this
neighborhood without being given any welcoming signs from the dog being
approached.

I also get, "Keep your dog away! My dog hates other dogs!" And if Fred
wants to go up to other dog despite all protestations about the other
dog's aggressive nature, guess what I always hear? "Well, I'll be darned!
My dog is *never* friendly with other dogs!" But you see, Fred *knew*
that dog would be friendly.

Not always, Lee....not always.

In fact, one of those people was *me*. I was saying "No thanks, he
doesn't want to say 'hi'". You paid me no attention and "let"
(encouraged, actually) Fred to continue approaching. Ironically, it
wasn't that the dog was aggressive in any way, it was that this
particular dog has very specific stress reactions when it comes to other
dogs. Its very difficult to see clearly, unless you really know this dog
*and* really understand the different ways stress can manifest. His
response is admittedly quite subtle....but at that point, I wasn't
asking you to "read" his stress levels, but merely to respect the fact
that *I* knew what his limits were. You didn't respect that and neither
did Fred.

And I ended up having to do calming work with him for the next 20
minutes after that little encounter. And, no, I was not pleased. And,
no, he didn't have any fun.

Its a tricky thing to know someone on here from real life. I know canis
pretty well (I like and respect him a lot, in fact, even when I don't
agree with him)....and I have to say I was never even once so much as
tempted to call him on anything here in the ng. But then I never saw him
use disrespect coupled with outright hyperbole to make some sort of
"point" the way I've seen you do. He was always pretty honest when
making a point. And tended to allow for differences in opinion without
someone having to end up being talked down to.

I've already said that I think you do have some value to add to the
dialogue on dog training and drive, and I still think so. But when you
use....well, I feel the need to use the term mis-truths...in order to
"prove" a point, you lose credibility with me. And that makes me sad
because I think you can do better than that.

Tara

LeeCharlesKelley wrote:

When my dog and I go walking I'll often get an invitation from another
dog's owner, "Oh, my dog is very friendly! Can't he come say hello?" And
if Fred wants to keep his distance, I let him because every time I've
forced the issue the other dog tried to attack Fred, and the dog's owner
would say something like, "I've never seen my dog *act* like this before!"
Maybe not, but Fred instinctively knew the other dog better than his
owner did.

Honestly, it would be nice if Fred would extend this courtesy to others.
He has approached a number of dogs (offlead) on the streets of this
neighborhood without being given any welcoming signs from the dog being
approached.

I also get, "Keep your dog away! My dog hates other dogs!" And if Fred
wants to go up to other dog despite all protestations about the other
dog's aggressive nature, guess what I always hear? "Well, I'll be darned!
My dog is *never* friendly with other dogs!" But you see, Fred *knew*
that dog would be friendly.

Not always, Lee....not always.

In fact, one of those people was *me*. I was saying "No thanks, he
doesn't want to say 'hi'". You paid me no attention and "let"
(encouraged, actually) Fred to continue approaching. Ironically, it
wasn't that the dog was aggressive in any way, it was that this
particular dog has very specific stress reactions when it comes to other
dogs. Its very difficult to see clearly, unless you really know this dog
*and* really understand the different ways stress can manifest. His
response is admittedly quite subtle....but at that point, I wasn't
asking you to "read" his stress levels, but merely to respect the fact
that *I* knew what his limits were. You didn't respect that and neither
did Fred.

And I ended up having to do calming work with him for the next 20
minutes after that little encounter. And, no, I was not pleased. And,
no, he didn't have any fun.

Its a tricky thing to know someone on here from real life. I know canis
pretty well (I like and respect him a lot, in fact, even when I don't
agree with him)....and I have to say I was never even once so much as
tempted to call him on anything here in the ng. But then I never saw him
use disrespect coupled with outright hyperbole to make some sort of
"point" the way I've seen you do. He was always pretty honest when
making a point. And tended to allow for differences in opinion without
someone having to end up being talked down to.

I've already said that I think you do have some value to add to the
dialogue on dog training and drive, and I still think so. But when you
use....well, I feel the need to use the term mis-truths...in order to
"prove" a point, you lose credibility with me. And that makes me sad
because I think you can do better than that.

Tara

LeeCharlesKelley wrote:

When my dog and I go walking I'll often get an invitation from another
dog's owner, "Oh, my dog is very friendly! Can't he come say hello?" And
if Fred wants to keep his distance, I let him because every time I've
forced the issue the other dog tried to attack Fred, and the dog's owner
would say something like, "I've never seen my dog *act* like this before!"
Maybe not, but Fred instinctively knew the other dog better than his
owner did.

Honestly, it would be nice if Fred would extend this courtesy to others.
He has approached a number of dogs (offlead) on the streets of this
neighborhood without being given any welcoming signs from the dog being
approached.

I also get, "Keep your dog away! My dog hates other dogs!" And if Fred
wants to go up to other dog despite all protestations about the other
dog's aggressive nature, guess what I always hear? "Well, I'll be darned!
My dog is *never* friendly with other dogs!" But you see, Fred *knew*
that dog would be friendly.

Not always, Lee....not always.

In fact, one of those people was *me*. I was saying "No thanks, he
doesn't want to say 'hi'". You paid me no attention and "let"
(encouraged, actually) Fred to continue approaching. Ironically, it
wasn't that the dog was aggressive in any way, it was that this
particular dog has very specific stress reactions when it comes to other
dogs. Its very difficult to see clearly, unless you really know this dog
*and* really understand the different ways stress can manifest. His
response is admittedly quite subtle....but at that point, I wasn't
asking you to "read" his stress levels, but merely to respect the fact
that *I* knew what his limits were. You didn't respect that and neither
did Fred.

And I ended up having to do calming work with him for the next 20
minutes after that little encounter. And, no, I was not pleased. And,
no, he didn't have any fun.

Its a tricky thing to know someone on here from real life. I know canis
pretty well (I like and respect him a lot, in fact, even when I don't
agree with him)....and I have to say I was never even once so much as
tempted to call him on anything here in the ng. But then I never saw him
use disrespect coupled with outright hyperbole to make some sort of
"point" the way I've seen you do. He was always pretty honest when
making a point. And tended to allow for differences in opinion without
someone having to end up being talked down to.

I've already said that I think you do have some value to add to the
dialogue on dog training and drive, and I still think so. But when you
use....well, I feel the need to use the term mis-truths...in order to
"prove" a point, you lose credibility with me. And that makes me sad
because I think you can do better than that.

Tara

LeeCharlesKelley wrote:

When my dog and I go walking I'll often get an invitation from another
dog's owner, "Oh, my dog is very friendly! Can't he come say hello?" And
if Fred wants to keep his distance, I let him because every time I've
forced the issue the other dog tried to attack Fred, and the dog's owner
would say something like, "I've never seen my dog *act* like this before!"
Maybe not, but Fred instinctively knew the other dog better than his
owner did.

Honestly, it would be nice if Fred would extend this courtesy to others.
He has approached a number of dogs (offlead) on the streets of this
neighborhood without being given any welcoming signs from the dog being
approached.

I also get, "Keep your dog away! My dog hates other dogs!" And if Fred
wants to go up to other dog despite all protestations about the other
dog's aggressive nature, guess what I always hear? "Well, I'll be darned!
My dog is *never* friendly with other dogs!" But you see, Fred *knew*
that dog would be friendly.

Not always, Lee....not always.

In fact, one of those people was *me*. I was saying "No thanks, he
doesn't want to say 'hi'". You paid me no attention and "let"
(encouraged, actually) Fred to continue approaching. Ironically, it
wasn't that the dog was aggressive in any way, it was that this
particular dog has very specific stress reactions when it comes to other
dogs. Its very difficult to see clearly, unless you really know this dog
*and* really understand the different ways stress can manifest. His
response is admittedly quite subtle....but at that point, I wasn't
asking you to "read" his stress levels, but merely to respect the fact
that *I* knew what his limits were. You didn't respect that and neither
did Fred.

And I ended up having to do calming work with him for the next 20
minutes after that little encounter. And, no, I was not pleased. And,
no, he didn't have any fun.

Its a tricky thing to know someone on here from real life. I know canis
pretty well (I like and respect him a lot, in fact, even when I don't
agree with him)....and I have to say I was never even once so much as
tempted to call him on anything here in the ng. But then I never saw him
use disrespect coupled with outright hyperbole to make some sort of
"point" the way I've seen you do. He was always pretty honest when
making a point. And tended to allow for differences in opinion without
someone having to end up being talked down to.

I've already said that I think you do have some value to add to the
dialogue on dog training and drive, and I still think so. But when you
use....well, I feel the need to use the term mis-truths...in order to
"prove" a point, you lose credibility with me. And that makes me sad
because I think you can do better than that.

Tara

Tara:Not always, Lee....not always.

In fact, one of those people was *me*. I was saying "No thanks, he
doesn't want to say 'hi'". You paid me no attention and "let" (encouraged,
actually) Fred to continue approaching.

When and where did this take place? I have a vague memory of some such
encounter, but can't really get a fix on it. I was a bit more cavalier
about such encounters in the past. I'm usually more circumspect and
respectful now. Honest.

Tara:I wasn't asking you to "read" his stress levels, but merely to
respect the fact that *I* knew what his limits were. You didn't respect
that and neither did Fred.

Well, I have no idea what you mean by "neither did Fred". Fred always has
a good reason for doing whatever he does, even if no one else understands
it at the time. But if *I* was the cause of a dog's stress levels going
up I sincerely apologize. It's the last thing I'd want to do.

And yes, anyone reading my posts should have a hyperbole filter on their
computer screen (not a #10 or even a #5, a #2 or #3 should work fine).

But you're right. It wasn't a proper way for *me* to have behaved, and I
apologize for it.

Tara:I never saw him [Canis] use disrespect coupled with outright
hyperbole to make some sort of "point" the way I've seen you do. He was
always pretty honest when making a point. And tended to allow for
differences in opinion without someone having to end up being talked down
to.

Canis and I are two different people with different personalities. He has
a more quiet, laid-back style, with a kind of wry humor. I tend to take
over a room or leave. And I don't use hyperbole to make a point. I do it
to . . .