My dog does not speak English. How do I know if she is in pain?

Here is the story.

She is a 13 year old blue heeler, pointer mix, runt of the litter
pound puppy.

A couple of months ago she had her spleen removed because x-rays
showed a growth. It was agreed to kill her if surgery showed it had
spread. It had not so they closed her up. Everything else in there
looked fine.

Shortly thereafter she started having nose problems. Especially the
right nostril. It is suspected cancer in the nasal sinuses. No
outward manifestations are visible on her head. She bleeds
periodically from the right nostril, often mixed with clear snot. She
walks with her head tilted to the right.

She is starting to get incontinent. At least we think. It smells but
for all we know it could be nasel discharge. If so, it's pretty
watery.

The worst part is that she breaths funny when trying to sleep. The
strange breathing is not limited to her nose area. Her
diaphram/abdonem area movement is very erratic. This has been going
on for weeks. Sometimes worse, sometimes not so bad.

We don't know when or how she is getting her sleep but we suspect
things aren't always so bad. She wags her tail alot and loves to go
on walks and rub her face in the snow and eat.

Our other dog recently died of cancer in her face which manifested
itself on the outside of her skull under her skill where we could see
it. Her pain was obvious because she panted ALOT and paced ALOT and
did not sleep much. We killed her.

Our living dog does NOT pant alot and does NOT pace alot and does not
exhibit any signs of pain that we are aware of. Yet we don't want her
to be in pain and we realize some people deal with pain differently so
why not dogs. Is there some objective test to tell? We don't want
her to suffer.

The vet advise not to scope and not to catscan and not to xray. They
don't think it's a foriegn object and gave us some antibiotics and a
drug that is supposed to slow down cancerous growth. In short, she's
fixing to die but we don't know when and DON'T WANT PAIN.

What say you?

Charlie -

I don't think anyone can answer this question. I've read stories where
people have simply asked the dog if it was time to go, and were able to
tell what the dog wanted. You've had her for 13 years - what do her
eyes tell you? For me, pain is something that can easily be seen in the
eyes of an animal.

On the physical side, I'd say as long as she is eating well, and
continues to want to go on walks and what not, it's not her time yet.
All of my dogs diet patterns changed radically when their time was
near, and I could see in their eyes that they wanted to be let go.
Best of luck.

Matt

On 29 Dec 2004 08:12:04 -0800, "Matt" wrote:

Charlie -

I don't think anyone can answer this question. I've read stories where
people have simply asked the dog if it was time to go, and were able to
tell what the dog wanted. You've had her for 13 years - what do her
eyes tell you? For me, pain is something that can easily be seen in the
eyes of an animal.

On the physical side, I'd say as long as she is eating well, and
continues to want to go on walks and what not, it's not her time yet.
All of my dogs diet patterns changed radically when their time was
near, and I could see in their eyes that they wanted to be let go.
Best of luck.

Matt

Thanks, Matt. We will take your advice. Her cateracs are such that
it's hard to see much in the eyes but I think what you are suggesting
we look for is something that will "show right through."

Yeah, thats pretty much it..... to me, it's something that only the
owners can see/sense, because of your long history with her.
Best of luck....

Matt

What would you know about feelings? You spend your entire day spewing
out messages of hate and pain, for what reason I cannot begin to
fathom, nor do I care to.

Helping your best friend to die is one of the most painful experiences
one can go through. Even more so if your best friend is canine.

You, on the other hand, relish wallowing in the grief of others,
compounding their pain. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if upon visiting
whatever place you call 'home' to find a puppy mill full of diseased,
starving and abused animals, all done by you to prove to them what a
powerful man you are.

As I see that others have already done quite a good job of ignoring
you, I will now follow their lead.

Matt said in rec.pets.dogs.health:

You, on the other hand, relish wallowing in the grief of
others, compounding their pain.

That only works if his posts are read. I found out a year after
the fact that he gloried in my Murphy's death, but by then it
didn't matter - he's been posting the same stuff for so long
that *none* of it matters. Since you can't killfile, second
best is ignoring him.

As I see that others have already done quite a good job of
ignoring you, I will now follow their lead.

Good for you!

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

In article Charlie Cloud writes:
My dog does not speak English. How do I know if she is in pain?

What say you?

Dear Charlie,

The problem is that there is no one behavior that is characteristic
of pain.

For example, here are excerpts from a web page on pain:

************************************************** ********************

Pain can cause tremoring or trembling and is a consideration whenever a disc
injury or spinal injury is suspected. If this is the case pain relievers
should at least help some.

Neurologic, muscular and skeletal problems sometimes lead to trembling. We
see this in conjunction with hip dysplasia (joint pain) and with
degenerative myelopathy (decreased nerve function). These particular
disorders probably aren't likely in your dog but there are others that are
less common that can lead to trembling.

Mike Richards, DVM

************************************************** *******************

Our small dog was shivering and was motionless for hours at a time
when he had what we think are gall bladder attacks. Yet at other
times, attacks??, he would stay in one position for a few minutes
and then move to another as if he could not find a comfortable (pain free?)
position. One thing for sure is that he would not eat.

I would think that it is time to consider euthanasia when your pet's daily
behaviors have much decreased. A dog that can no longer walk, who does not
wag his/her tail, who does not eat, and who spends most of his or her time
sleeping might be a candidate for euthanasia.

From personal experience, I know that antidepressants can control
pain in humans. A google search found this interesting page:

http://www.2ndchance.info/pain.htm

From the description that you have offered, I would think that
your dog is not yet a candidate for euthanasia. So your dog makes
strange noises at night (we all do this as we grow older) and
erratic movements while sleeping (could be dreaming). But your
dog is also eating, walking, and tail wagging. This dog sounds
blessed with more days and the companionship of your family.

If my dog were in this situation, I would spoil him
and cherish our days together. Each of us would
be helping the other face the inevitable.

Do keep us posted.

--Marshall

On 30 Dec 2004 07:05:07 GMT, (Marshall
Dermer) wrote:

Matt and Marshal, et al, thanks.

After considering what everyone had to say, here and elsewhere, and
after trying to make sure we weren't doing the denial thing, we have
determined she's good for a while. We took her to the vet today and
the urine sample showed a bladded infection. We have drugs. Initial
blood work showed no diabetes. We are waiting for other blood
results. Tempurature was good.

She eats, drinks and enjoys walks and wags her tail and she does not
give us that "look" that our border collie gave us toward the end.
Nights are the roughest because of the way she breaths and has
dificulty getting settled, plus what appears to be minor siezures in
the rear end, but over all we think she still has quality of life so
we'll press on and hope things even out.

Thanks again for your input.

In article Charlie Cloud writes:
Nights are the roughest because of the way she breaths and has
dificulty getting settled, plus what appears to be minor siezures in
the rear end, but over all we think she still has quality of life so
we'll press on and hope things even out.

Thanks again for your input.

Sounds good Charlie.

--Marshall

"Charlie Cloud" wrote in message
...
She eats, drinks and enjoys walks and wags her tail and she does not
give us that "look" that our border collie gave us toward the end.

........yes, if you already know *the look*, you know when your pup is
telling you it's enough.

Nights are the roughest because of the way she breaths and has
dificulty getting settled,

..............maybe she could use a pillow? She might rest better with her
head and chest elevated. Worth a try.

enjoy every minute of the rest of her stay with you
buglady
take out the dog before replying