I know that someone here can probably point me to necessary articles.
First, the background. Someone dropped off a small hound-type puppy at my
mother's house. They have decided to keep it and want to get it fixed..

After my sticker shock of spaying here in WV ($95 for a 10lb dog???) I was
told that they dont do spay/neuter under 6 months of age because it is too
dangerous.

One shelter said that has a low-cost program told me that "early"
spay-neuter is only provided to shelter dogs because they cant be adopted
out until they are fixed. Otherwise, they advise waiting until 6 months of
age.

At this rate, it would be easier to drop her off at the pound and the "buy"
her the next day! Then, the $50 includes spay and all vaccinations..

so, I was planning on dropping off info at the local vet office (plus my
vet) as well as the local humane societies..

if anyone can point me towards some resources

"Suja" wrote in message
...
CaptRon wrote:

After my sticker shock of spaying here in WV ($95 for a 10lb dog???) I
was
told that they dont do spay/neuter under 6 months of age because it is
too
dangerous.

The spay rate doesn't sound outrageous considering that it is invasive
surgery (at least for my area), and they are right that early spays are
only done under certain circumstances.

from having heard it mention here many times, I thought that it was fairly
common. In Florida, I know that many of the vets did it as early as 8
weeks. And to clarify, here in WV and across the border in OH, they dont
do spay/neuter before 6 months of age or the first heat, whichever comes
first. From my time here, I came to believe that the earlier the better and
that it was best to have the dog spayed before her first heat? I have
found 2 clinics (same vet/differnt offices) that do it earlier. I know
that a spay is more expensive, but in FL, I paid less than $50 to have a 45
lb dog neutered so it was a bit of a shock.
I was assuming that much of the price difference could be "supply and
demand" Regular vet care isnt really a concern of many of the people around
here. Forget having their pets "fixed". The basic attitude is "why?" The
Humane Society in Gallia County OH doesnt even require their dogs to be
fixed after adoption. You are given a certificate to take to the vet (so
there is no charge) but 90% of the people dont bother.


At this rate, it would be easier to drop her off at the pound and the
"buy"
her the next day! Then, the $50 includes spay and all vaccinations..

While it may be less expensive to do so, I'm not quite sure how ethical
it is. The pounds are generally not rolling in dough and operate on
fairly tight budgets.

I know and I wouldnt actually do it, but I know that doing that would
probably be the only chance the poor thing has of actually getting her
shots. I know that my mother wont pay for it and I cant afford to do it
for her.

dainerra

I had discussions with both my dog's breeder and my vet on this one. I have
female GSD. The breeder said at least wait until she goes into heat once,
but better to wait until 18 monthes because it will mess her up hormonally.
The vet said that hormones wasn't really an issue. She said there was minor
evidence that maybe (notice this seems to be low risk) there could be an
increasedpossibility of incontinence later in life. She said that it is
hard to correlate that because dogs are living longer and the older they get
the more like they are to dribble. The hard fact she could give me was
there is a 25% higher chance of mamary cancer if we wait until after her
first cycle, and something like 35% if we wait until 2 years. That decided
me.

Also, it was around $120 for our dog. Had her done between 6 and 7 months.

--
Rusty Myers
Austin, TX

"CaptRon" wrote in message
. net...
I know that someone here can probably point me to necessary articles.
First, the background. Someone dropped off a small hound-type puppy at my
mother's house. They have decided to keep it and want to get it fixed..

After my sticker shock of spaying here in WV ($95 for a 10lb dog???) I was
told that they dont do spay/neuter under 6 months of age because it is too
dangerous.

One shelter said that has a low-cost program told me that "early"
spay-neuter is only provided to shelter dogs because they cant be adopted
out until they are fixed. Otherwise, they advise waiting until 6 months
of
age.

At this rate, it would be easier to drop her off at the pound and the
"buy"
her the next day! Then, the $50 includes spay and all vaccinations..

so, I was planning on dropping off info at the local vet office (plus my
vet) as well as the local humane societies..

if anyone can point me towards some resources

A thread with links about this topic at the following URL:

http://Bichon.ca/cgi-bin/bichon/bich...num=1057985459


http://Bichon.ca/


On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:15:59 GMT, "CaptRon"
wrote:

I know that someone here can probably point me to necessary articles.
First, the background. Someone dropped off a small hound-type puppy at my
mother's house. They have decided to keep it and want to get it fixed..

After my sticker shock of spaying here in WV ($95 for a 10lb dog???) I was
told that they dont do spay/neuter under 6 months of age because it is too
dangerous.

One shelter said that has a low-cost program told me that "early"
spay-neuter is only provided to shelter dogs because they cant be adopted
out until they are fixed. Otherwise, they advise waiting until 6 months of
age.

At this rate, it would be easier to drop her off at the pound and the "buy"
her the next day! Then, the $50 includes spay and all vaccinations..

so, I was planning on dropping off info at the local vet office (plus my
vet) as well as the local humane societies..

if anyone can point me towards some resources

"CaptRon" wrote in message
.net...

"Suja" wrote in message
...
CaptRon wrote:

After my sticker shock of spaying here in WV ($95 for a 10lb dog???)
I was told that they dont do spay/neuter under 6 months of age because it
is too dangerous.

The spay rate doesn't sound outrageous considering that it is invasive
surgery (at least for my area), and they are right that early spays are
only done under certain circumstances.

from having heard it mention here many times, I thought that it was fairly
common. In Florida, I know that many of the vets did it as early as 8
weeks. And to clarify, here in WV and across the border in OH, they
dont
do spay/neuter before 6 months of age or the first heat, whichever comes
first. From my time here, I came to believe that the earlier the better
and
that it was best to have the dog spayed before her first heat? I have
found 2 clinics (same vet/differnt offices) that do it earlier. I know
that a spay is more expensive, but in FL, I paid less than $50 to have a
45
lb dog neutered so it was a bit of a shock.

Neutering a dog is a much less invasive surgery than spaying a bitch.
Most clinics that I know of charge less for neutering than spaying.

I was assuming that much of the price difference could be "supply and
demand" Regular vet care isnt really a concern of many of the people
around here. Forget having their pets "fixed". The basic attitude is
"why?" The Humane Society in Gallia County OH doesnt even require their
dogs to be fixed after adoption. You are given a certificate to take to
the vet (so there is no charge) but 90% of the people dont bother.

1) are they a kill shelter? 2) I'd hate to see the number of unwanted
puppies they take in each year/month/whatever. Let alone the
number of euthanizations done if they are a kill shelter.

I know and I wouldnt actually do it, but I know that doing that would
probably be the only chance the poor thing has of actually getting her
shots. I know that my mother wont pay for it and I cant afford to do it
for her.

I don't want to sound like a bitch, but spaying a dog is a small cost
of dog ownership. If you cannot afford (or you mother) to do this
thing, what will happen in the face of an emergency? Or sickness?
Routine wormings & vaccinations can run $40-50, and that's
not even including any yearly bloodwork (which, IMHO--and I'm not
rich by any means--should be part of the yearly exam). What if your
puppy eats something it shouldn't, or has to have x-rays, or because
of a persistant limp that just won't go away? Many, many things
that *could* be less expensive if not put off because of owners
not wanting to fork over money become much worse, and much more
costly in the long run.
Dog ownership can be a wonderful, enjoyable thing in a person's life.
But, being a responsible owner is important. And that responsibility
ranges from having a well-behaved pet, to proper feeding and grooming
to neccessary vet care. Even if you cannot
afford to pay for a spay surgery now, maybe by putting away a little
bit every week/month, you'll be able to plan & pay for it in a few months.
Keeping a bit of money stashed aside for things like this & other
emergencies that could potentially happen is a very wise thing to do.
Also, you can keep an eye out at local shelters that might do assistance
programs for low-income families/people. I know that our local shelter
has vouchers that, for $15.00 (IIRC), you can take it to the vet of
your choice and have them perform the operation. Then, the
vet and the shelter work out the difference (if there is any--many vets
don't charge the extra because, despite that it might be good for
business, they don't want to see a lot of unwanted/unexpected litters).

And...I would be surprised if OH didn't do early spay/neuters, you'd
just have to find the right clinic. Personally, because I have large
dogs (and no intact females around!), I wouldn't neuter before
6 month. But, that's because of growth issues that aren't neccessarily
an issue in smaller dogs.

Shelly & The Boys:
Coda HIC, CGC (Collie-somethin')
Bodhi (Baby Belgian--Sandcastle's Oh So Groovy HIC, HCT)

CaptRon" wrote in message
. net...
I know that someone here can probably point me to necessary articles.
First, the background. Someone dropped off a small hound-type puppy at my
mother's house. They have decided to keep it and want to get it fixed..

After my sticker shock of spaying here in WV ($95 for a 10lb dog???) I was
told that they dont do spay/neuter under 6 months of age because it is too
dangerous.

One shelter said that has a low-cost program told me that "early"
spay-neuter is only provided to shelter dogs because they cant be adopted
out until they are fixed. Otherwise, they advise waiting until 6 months
of
age.

Here's what I've heard:

1. You should never spay before a first heat because the dog needs to be
hormonally inducted.
2. Pediatric s/n will either stunt growth or cause a dog to grow
unregulated.
3. If a bitch has a slight discharge, you should wait until after the first
heat to spay because the heat will take care of the discharge.
4. Pediatric s/n aren't done on client's puppies because the chance for a
negative reaction to the anesthesia is a possibility and should the pup die,
the owner will sue.

Here's what I know from experience and from the experience of many others
who either do pediatric s/n or who have fully adult dogs who were s/n as a
baby:

1. The dogs are not generally any bigger or smaller than a dog who is intact
or who was spayed later. Considering that you have to factor in the gene
pool in regards to size/proportion, it is unfair to put the blame of a dog's
size squarely on its having, or lacking, hormones.

2. The puppies require less anesthesia than older dogs and they recover much
more quickly.

3. If a female puppy has a discharge then there's a really BIG likelihood
that there's an infection going on that a heat won't cure but antibiotics
will.

4. Most vets will not s/n client puppies due to the anesthesia factor.
There's no history on a baby puppy so there's no way to tell at the age of
6-8 weeks if the pup has any known allergies or disorders (such as epilepsy)
that anesthesia would trigger a negative or deadly reaction from. Its this
reason, and the fear of lawsuit, that alot of good vets ask their clients to
wait until the pup is 6 months before doing anything that requires
anesthesia unless its an emergecy.

5. By allowing bitches to come into heat, you've now allowed for the
possibility of infection and/or cancer later on whereas having spayed before
a heat will have removed those possibilities.

In summary, I think the whole idea that pediatric s/n are dangerous is an
old wives tale. While it could be dangerous to some puppies with weak
health or underlying problems that have yet to make themselves known, on the
whole I don't believe its any more dangerous than taking the same puppies to
the vet and exposing them to a waiting room full of germs.



--
Tara

...good points all. here is some additional info I have
some bitches do have a tendency to get frequent urinary tract infections, so if
a puppy has had one, waiting to spay until after the first heat may have a
slight benefit, as the sex hormones "tip" the uterus and change the shape of the
urinary tract to be less conducive to infections. Also, puppies that are
incontinent (NOT un-housebroken - truly incontinent ) may benefit from being in
heat. Otherwise the common wisdom I have heard consistently is spay early -
before 6 months. Since all of my dogs are less than 10 pounds at maturity, I can
attest that size has no relevance to outcome nor to price! And biochemically
speaking, yes the onset of sex hormones is in fact the signal to turn off growth
hormone - but there probably is enough estrogen/testosterone even after
spay/neuter to provide this signal. Even though the primary source of the
hormones is removed, there are other sources that make the hormones in a much
much lower amount. So even though the fear was that early spay/neuter would
eliminate the growth shut-off signal, this has not actually been what has been
found in practice.

"Tara O." wrote:

CaptRon" wrote in message
. net...
I know that someone here can probably point me to necessary articles.
First, the background. Someone dropped off a small hound-type puppy at my
mother's house. They have decided to keep it and want to get it fixed..

After my sticker shock of spaying here in WV ($95 for a 10lb dog???) I was
told that they dont do spay/neuter under 6 months of age because it is too
dangerous.

One shelter said that has a low-cost program told me that "early"
spay-neuter is only provided to shelter dogs because they cant be adopted
out until they are fixed. Otherwise, they advise waiting until 6 months
of
age.

Here's what I've heard:

1. You should never spay before a first heat because the dog needs to be
hormonally inducted.
2. Pediatric s/n will either stunt growth or cause a dog to grow
unregulated.
3. If a bitch has a slight discharge, you should wait until after the first
heat to spay because the heat will take care of the discharge.
4. Pediatric s/n aren't done on client's puppies because the chance for a
negative reaction to the anesthesia is a possibility and should the pup die,
the owner will sue.

Here's what I know from experience and from the experience of many others
who either do pediatric s/n or who have fully adult dogs who were s/n as a
baby:

1. The dogs are not generally any bigger or smaller than a dog who is intact
or who was spayed later. Considering that you have to factor in the gene
pool in regards to size/proportion, it is unfair to put the blame of a dog's
size squarely on its having, or lacking, hormones.

2. The puppies require less anesthesia than older dogs and they recover much
more quickly.

3. If a female puppy has a discharge then there's a really BIG likelihood
that there's an infection going on that a heat won't cure but antibiotics
will.

4. Most vets will not s/n client puppies due to the anesthesia factor.
There's no history on a baby puppy so there's no way to tell at the age of
6-8 weeks if the pup has any known allergies or disorders (such as epilepsy)
that anesthesia would trigger a negative or deadly reaction from. Its this
reason, and the fear of lawsuit, that alot of good vets ask their clients to
wait until the pup is 6 months before doing anything that requires
anesthesia unless its an emergecy.

5. By allowing bitches to come into heat, you've now allowed for the
possibility of infection and/or cancer later on whereas having spayed before
a heat will have removed those possibilities.

In summary, I think the whole idea that pediatric s/n are dangerous is an
old wives tale. While it could be dangerous to some puppies with weak
health or underlying problems that have yet to make themselves known, on the
whole I don't believe its any more dangerous than taking the same puppies to
the vet and exposing them to a waiting room full of germs.

--
Tara

"Tricia9999" wrote in message
...
In summary, I think the whole idea that pediatric s/n are dangerous is
an
old wives tale. While it could be dangerous to some puppies with weak
health or underlying problems that have yet to make themselves known,
on
the
whole I don't believe its any more dangerous than taking the same
puppies
to
the vet and exposing them to a waiting room full of germs.

There has never been any research on early s/n. Some vets are starting to
notice some possible hormonal connections - weaker bones, more ligament
tears
maybe. It is a sacred cow and there is a risk in questioning the possible
side
effects. Myrna Milani will be talking about this in Sept in a
presentation. She
(and a growing number of clinical types) are not convinced that it is as
safe
as has been presumed.

I would be very interested in her presentation (as in, Tricia, are you
going and will you be taking notes!? grin)

After it became a decision of not *if* I'd neuter Bodhi,
but *when* to neuter him, I wanted to weigh the pro's & con's of neutering
at or around 6 mos. vs. waiting until he was a bit older, such as
14-16 mos. He is a med/large size dog, and because I plan to
do performance events with him (herding & agility, both dog sports
that are/can be physically demanding), I wanted to be certain that
his growth plates would be closed prior ot neutering. After asking
several different veterinarians (2 at our clinic, and 2 that actually have,
breed, and
do sports with Belgians), the consensus from them was to wait until
he was around 14-16 months of age. He is cryptorchid, so by
still doing it "early", but not waiting until he was at danger for
testicular
cancer developing & spreading.

However...they all know me well enough to know that I am a responsible
enough owner to keep my dog from breeding another. But, like
I stated earlier, he will be a 50+lb dog at maturity, and
proper structural growth is of utmost importance to me.
Shelly & The Boys

Our vet would have done our dog at 4 months, but said he was too small.
Maybe on a larger breed they would. At any rate, he was done at 6 months
because he was humping the cat unmercifully.

"CaptRon" wrote in message
. net...
I know that someone here can probably point me to necessary articles.
First, the background. Someone dropped off a small hound-type puppy at my
mother's house. They have decided to keep it and want to get it fixed..

After my sticker shock of spaying here in WV ($95 for a 10lb dog???) I was
told that they dont do spay/neuter under 6 months of age because it is too
dangerous.

One shelter said that has a low-cost program told me that "early"
spay-neuter is only provided to shelter dogs because they cant be adopted
out until they are fixed. Otherwise, they advise waiting until 6 months
of
age.

At this rate, it would be easier to drop her off at the pound and the
"buy"
her the next day! Then, the $50 includes spay and all vaccinations..

so, I was planning on dropping off info at the local vet office (plus my
vet) as well as the local humane societies..

if anyone can point me towards some resources

"dejablues" wrote in message
...
If the puppy was "dropped off", the $95.00 cost might include an exam,
blood
work, and vaccines also, since chancers are she hasn't seen a vet before.
That's about what it costs here in SE PA, btw...unless you want to pay 50
bucks extra for the laser surgery!

no, the $95 was just for the spay. They do require that the dog be upto
date on shots, which brought the total to $165.