In my seemingly never ending quest to research the two breeds of dogs
I'm considering for the future (Springers and Goldens) I've come to
realize that I specifically fancy the dark red/mahogany colored Goldens.
I realize that the range in the coat color does vary but in the kennels
I've researched, the majority of the dogs are of a medium to light
coloring.

While in Goldens, it appears color is not a main factor - say as in many
other breeds, I don't find many dogs with this darker coat color. Is
there a particular reason?

Assuming the breeders are going about the proper testing (or the tests
that I feel are mandatory, thus excluding the majority of the breeders
out there), is it possible to find a breeder that specializes in a
darker coat, and if they did, would this be a "red flag"? Certainly, the
coat is a preference, and I've not found in my research any nasty
genetic issues linked to the darker coat....perhaps I'm looking for some
advise or reassurance that I'm not in treacherous water by looking for a
breeder that has the dark coat in its lines. Suggestions?

Darby Wiggins wrote in
:

In my seemingly never ending quest to research the two breeds of dogs
I'm considering for the future (Springers and Goldens) I've come to
realize that I specifically fancy the dark red/mahogany colored
Goldens. I realize that the range in the coat color does vary but in
the kennels I've researched, the majority of the dogs are of a medium
to light coloring.

While in Goldens, it appears color is not a main factor - say as in
many other breeds, I don't find many dogs with this darker coat color.
Is there a particular reason?

Assuming the breeders are going about the proper testing (or the tests
that I feel are mandatory, thus excluding the majority of the breeders
out there), is it possible to find a breeder that specializes in a
darker coat, and if they did, would this be a "red flag"? Certainly,
the coat is a preference, and I've not found in my research any nasty
genetic issues linked to the darker coat....perhaps I'm looking for
some advise or reassurance that I'm not in treacherous water by
looking for a breeder that has the dark coat in its lines.
Suggestions?

Some of what you're seeing is a matter of fashion in the show ring, and
some of it is regional. As a *general rule*, field-bred Goldens tend to
have red coats, with much less coat than a bench-bred Golden. We're
seeing quite a few very heavy, almost white English-style Goldens here
in BC right now.

There happens to be a good breeder of Goldens in my neighbourhood
(British Columbia) who is working to walk the middle path between
conformation and field and who has a lovely red girl who will be bred
this fall. Email me for particulars if you're interested.

That said, I'd go looking for the healthiest, best-tempered, best-bred
dog you can find, and if it comes down to a draw between two kennels, go
for the redder one. I think a breeder who specializes in red would be a
flag for two reasons:

1) Most responsible breeders (non-field) are showing their dogs
2) Blonde dogs are doing better in the show ring, ergo
3) Most responsible (non-field) breeders will have blonde dogs.

If you're really hooked on red, then start looking at field lines and be
every bit as picky about health issues as you would be on the show side.
Also be ready for a dog who is, shall we say, a bit bouncier than the
average bear...

--
Kate
and Storm the FCR

Darby Wiggins said in rec.pets.dogs.breeds:

Assuming the breeders are going about the proper testing
(or the tests that I feel are mandatory, thus excluding the
majority of the breeders out there), is it possible to find
a breeder that specializes in a darker coat, and if they
did, would this be a "red flag"?

A red flag if they're breeding for that coat, maybe not a red
flag if their lines throw that coat.

All I can offer you is the thought process which I'm going
through now. Like you, I'm planning *way* ahead for my next
dog. In my current order of preference, here's my short-listing
process for Next Dog:

1. Next Dog will be a Border Collie (I want drive while I can
still physically handle one in my dog sports of choice).
2. Next Dog will be a female (no particular reason, but it's
time we had a girl dog around here again).
3. She'll be traditional of her breed (working dog lines, not a
large dog like many I see).
4. She'll come to me as a puppy (it's time for a puppy).
5. She'll have a short or medium coat.
6. Yellow or red (I like Friday's colour).
7. Wolf eyes (like Melanie's Solo).

When you say them out loud, requisites like 6 and 7 are very
trivial but, given everything else, it's what I'd like. These
are entirely negotiable, though, and carry practically no weight
when it comes down to Next Dog's other aspects.

The coat (5) is a practical issue - I'd rather spend time
working with Next Dog and not travelling with a load of grooming
and clean-up supplies. Still, it's lower priority.

Numbers 2 and 4 are emotional issues and are pretty well set in
stone, though #4 would fall by the wayside if the right younger
dog came along.

Numbers 1 and 3 are strictly non-negotiable (even though my
emotional arm has been twisted by some incredible ACDs).

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

I'm "newer" to Goldens than Springers, so I'm still learning all the
differences in the field vs. bench bred Goldens, so would it be fair to say
that as a general rule of thumb, the field goldens are or are not tested as
rigorously as their bench counterparts?

Obviously, the the health/temperment is the main issue and as you put it, if
all things equal in a kennel, go the red route. But I'm wondering if the two
schools of thought (bench and field) have diverged to a great extent? The
heavier build I see in the ring is aesthetically, more pleasing to me than
what I'm imagining, is a "lankier" field bred. But then again, I'm really
not sure that I've seem some good examples of a well bred field golden and
perhaps, like what is being seen in the labs, the heavier built goldens are
"in". Suggestions for some sites to look at to get a good idea of what a
proper bench and field golden *should* look like. (there is a kennel out in
CA...northern CA I think, that has red dogs and specializes in it. Based on
what I've seen from the site, I'd never purchase a dog from them however, I
do love the colors...can't remember the name though....)

Also, can you elaborate on why the darker color is more often seen in the
fields other than the lighter bench dogs are more popular and thus, in the
ring more and thus being bred more than their darker counterparts? Has the
darker color just been bred out of the bench dogs and still exists in the
field? (I'm still new to this, so be patient). When I think of "golden" I
think "gold"...not white...but then again, some don't think "red" either.

Perhaps I'm not convinced that it *should* be hard to find a well bred
golden on the darker side because if its more of a "fad" for the lighter
dogs to be shown and thus, bred, those same dogs would seemingly have red in
them, just not as prevalent. And second, while conformation is suppose to be
a proving ground for breeding, I can't believe that there aren't excellent
darker goldens who are just a breed worthy as their lighter counterparts,
but due to the "trend" in lighter colored dogs, are not winning as much -
but then again, that's conformation correct?


KWBrown wrote:

Darby Wiggins wrote in
:

In my seemingly never ending quest to research the two breeds of dogs
I'm considering for the future (Springers and Goldens) I've come to
realize that I specifically fancy the dark red/mahogany colored
Goldens. I realize that the range in the coat color does vary but in
the kennels I've researched, the majority of the dogs are of a medium
to light coloring.

While in Goldens, it appears color is not a main factor - say as in
many other breeds, I don't find many dogs with this darker coat color.
Is there a particular reason?

Assuming the breeders are going about the proper testing (or the tests
that I feel are mandatory, thus excluding the majority of the breeders
out there), is it possible to find a breeder that specializes in a
darker coat, and if they did, would this be a "red flag"? Certainly,
the coat is a preference, and I've not found in my research any nasty
genetic issues linked to the darker coat....perhaps I'm looking for
some advise or reassurance that I'm not in treacherous water by
looking for a breeder that has the dark coat in its lines.
Suggestions?

Some of what you're seeing is a matter of fashion in the show ring, and
some of it is regional. As a *general rule*, field-bred Goldens tend to
have red coats, with much less coat than a bench-bred Golden. We're
seeing quite a few very heavy, almost white English-style Goldens here
in BC right now.

There happens to be a good breeder of Goldens in my neighbourhood
(British Columbia) who is working to walk the middle path between
conformation and field and who has a lovely red girl who will be bred
this fall. Email me for particulars if you're interested.

That said, I'd go looking for the healthiest, best-tempered, best-bred
dog you can find, and if it comes down to a draw between two kennels, go
for the redder one. I think a breeder who specializes in red would be a
flag for two reasons:

1) Most responsible breeders (non-field) are showing their dogs
2) Blonde dogs are doing better in the show ring, ergo
3) Most responsible (non-field) breeders will have blonde dogs.

If you're really hooked on red, then start looking at field lines and be
every bit as picky about health issues as you would be on the show side.
Also be ready for a dog who is, shall we say, a bit bouncier than the
average bear...

--
Kate
and Storm the FCR

Rocky wrote:
1. Next Dog will be a Border Collie (I want drive while I can
still physically handle one in my dog sports of choice).

Just out of curiosity, what breed would you choose if you were no longer
involved in agility?

Suja

Darby Wiggins wrote in
:

I'm "newer" to Goldens than Springers, so I'm still learning all the
differences in the field vs. bench bred Goldens, so would it be fair
to say that as a general rule of thumb, the field goldens are or are
not tested as rigorously as their bench counterparts?

Lots of good questions, here. I'm really hoping Susan Fraser sticks her
head in: she's much better qualified to comment than I am about the
Golden world in general.

No, I don't think field is necessarily tested less rigorously. The
well-bred competitive lines are relatively limited (even smaller, I'm
coming to think, than the Flat Coat world) and people are pretty aware
of genetic and health issues. In practical terms, sick dogs don't hunt
or trial very well.

There are fewer of them, and I would dare say that most BYB stock is
coming from the fringes of the bench Golden world. There are great
breeders and there are idiots on both sides of the field/bench fence,
and you get/give about the same amount in each direction. The
stereotypical field golden is a little funny-looking to the bench eye,
and the stereotypical bench dog can't hunt its way out of a paper bag.
Neither is universally true, of course.

Suggestions for some sites to look at to get a good idea of what a
proper bench and field golden *should* look like. (there is a kennel
out in CA...northern CA I think, that has red dogs and specializes in
it. Based on what I've seen from the site, I'd never purchase a dog
from them however, I do love the colors...can't remember the name
though....)

Here are some well-bred field goldens:

http://www.headsupdogtraining.com/goldens.htm
http://www3.telus.net/tntkennels/tntretrievers.htm

Here is a field/bench cross who is doing very nicely (Scramble):

http://www.pageweb.com/gldstone/Zani...irifamily.html.

Zaniri also breed for the bench, and are most interested in making sure
that they breed dogs who look good *and* work well. You'll find some
pictures of nice bench dogs there, too.

Also, can you elaborate on why the darker color is more often seen in
the fields other than the lighter bench dogs are more popular and
thus, in the ring more and thus being bred more than their darker
counterparts?

I really don't know. It's one of those things that make me glad my
breed comes in plain ol' black or liver.

Has the darker color just been bred out of the bench
dogs and still exists in the field? (I'm still new to this, so be
patient). When I think of "golden" I think "gold"...not white...but
then again, some don't think "red" either.

I think the relatively limited gene pool of field dogs happens to trend
toward red. The field Goldens look much more like pictures I've seen of
Goldens from early in the 20th century. I believe that the bench dog
has wandered farther from those origins. Some of those changes include
heavy bone (can't get the dam* dog back into the canoe), more coat
(can't dry her out, neither), and blonder (purty).

Perhaps I'm not convinced that it *should* be hard to find a well bred
golden on the darker side because if its more of a "fad" for the
lighter dogs to be shown and thus, bred, those same dogs would
seemingly have red in them, just not as prevalent. And second, while
conformation is suppose to be a proving ground for breeding, I can't
believe that there aren't excellent darker goldens who are just a
breed worthy as their lighter counterparts, but due to the "trend" in
lighter colored dogs, are not winning as much - but then again, that's
conformation correct?

Yep. And if the dog isn't winning, then she's unlikely to be bred,
thereby reducing the number of red genes in the next generation.

Happy hunting,

--
Kate
and Storm the FCR

Suja said in rec.pets.dogs.breeds:

Rocky wrote:
1. Next Dog will be a Border Collie (I want drive while I
can still physically handle one in my dog sports of
choice).

Just out of curiosity, what breed would you choose if you
were no longer involved in agility?

First an aside: My number 1 point involved sports (plural).
I've been hankering to try herding and Rocky and Friday don't
really want to. Friday, though, was young at his Scott Glen
clinic and deserves another chance.

Another aside: I don't want a BC just so I can do well in
agility - I'm finding that I really love high-drive dogs that
come in medium packages.

Other than that, the answer to your question is really easy: I'd
cruise the shelters and put the word out to my friends involved
in rescue.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.breeds:

: 3. She'll be traditional of her breed (working dog lines,
: not a large dog like many I see).
: 4. She'll come to me as a puppy (it's time for a puppy).
: 5. She'll have a short or medium coat.

Up to here you're describing a puppy that'll grow up to be
Fly.

I'm also describing Elly Belly. When she runs, her legs blur
like in the Tasmanian Devil cartoons. Elly is tiny - 2.5 years
old and 27 pounds. She's a singleton from an oops breeding on
Scott's ranch.

: 7. Wolf eyes (like Melanie's Solo).

Why would you want a dog with psycho eyes like this?
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~mlchang/gimme.jpg

Heh, why *wouldn't* I want a crazy-eyed dog?

I'd never buy from a
breeder, however, who used color as any kind of criterion,

Natch.

Solo has a lot of coat for a Border Collie and requires
practically no grooming. His hair is Teflon and never
tangles or mats. I only groom him because he likes it and
to deal with shedding when that season rolls around. If
you're thinking of an Aussie coat like Rocky has, you need
not worry about running into that unless you buy a Barbie
Collie.

I've never seen a Barbie Collie in real life. I suppose it's a
combination of living in an area where many BCs still work for a
living and that they're not involved in conformation.

True, Fly's coat is even less care than Solo's but
for a hairy dog he poses very few grooming issues. (Well,
except for that Lassie Ass thing.)

Friday's coat is a BCish medium - almost no grooming except for
matting behind his ears and around his manly parts. Both of my
dogs shed dirt with no problem, though Rocky's undercoat is
discouraging at times (especially when it's super cold and I
can't brush him outside).

Well, my future pup is going to have to wait on either
having our own sheep or having VERY regular access to
someone else's, so I have plenty of time to mull all this
over but like you I'm pretty sure what I want.

Yup, I know what I want and I'm willing to wait, but sometimes
the perfect dog comes out of left field. I'm OK with that, too.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Rocky said in rec.pets.dogs.breeds:

Just out of curiosity, what breed would you choose if you
were no longer involved in agility?

Other than that, the answer to your question is really
easy: I'd cruise the shelters and put the word out to my
friends involved in rescue.

Rereading, I didn't answer your question.

Mutt, compatible with me and mine. Other than compatibility,
every other aspect is negotiable.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.breeds:

Solo's behaviorist has three Aussies and when they get
muddy they stay muddy. Solo is clean as soon as he's dry
and all the dirt that was on his coat ends up on my floor
and in my car. But at least I don't have to bathe him
often.

With his undercoat, Rocky doesn't dry as quickly as Friday after
a swim, but the dirt drops right out when he does. In the
summer, he air-dries reasonably well within 15 minutes. Good
ol' Murphy used to take hours. I haven't bathed Rocky since he
had giardia about 6 years ago, though I have had to take the
hose to his hairy butt now and then (for reasons I probably
don't need to go into).

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.