On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:52:01 -0500, Janet B
wrote:

Strong leadership (which doesn't involve hitting or even correction
necessarily) means that dogs don't even try this level of
obnoxiousness, or not more than once.


I meant to add - are you doing any TRAINING with them? Class would be
a great place for both of them to get work in each other's presence.
That's what leadership is about.

You're discovering the downside of getting littermates (there are
many). Doing individual things with them is really important and you
haven't gotten off to a great start by having them share a crate, so
remedy that asap.

Structure, respect, teaching - all good things. Hitting on the bottom
or anywhere else - not good things. Scaring dogs isn't the idea -
teaching them is.


--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfr...ence/my_photos

Get the crate NOW.

Appreciate the advice. Won't happen NOW. I'm at work. Won't happen
tonight - I have a church meeting. Might be tomorrow.

Feed them in the crate? Doesn't that get a little messy?

Why would it? They do eat from bowls, right? How would it be any
messier than a bowl on the floor?

I'm not arguing with you about your advice - I'm going to try it. But
why would a crate meal be messier than a kitchen meal? I dunno, which
is messier, eating dinner in your house or eating dinner in your car?
The floor is easier to dust, sweep, mop - the inside of the crate, less
so. That's all.

Our dogs 'zip into the crate' when we tell 'em to. We just say "Get in
your den" and in they go. No trouble so far.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

On 8 Mar 2005 05:57:11 -0800, "The Bill Mattocks"
wrote:


No! We come a'runnin' if we hear that going on in the kitchen while
we're doing our morning stuff. We're never more than 20 feet away from
them at any feeding time. And if she's being physical, we pull her off
him and correct/scold her. Doesn't seem to be helping.


20 feet is too far (you've probably figure that out by now). Puppies
should be eating immediately, so standing WITH the puppies for 5
minutes shouldn't impede your morning routine too much. "hearing" it
going on is not enough supervision.

even with crates, I would advise you to BE RIGHT THERE to VERBALLY
correct any nastiness on girl-dog's part.

--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfr...ence/my_photos

On 8 Mar 2005 05:57:11 -0800, "The Bill Mattocks"
wrote:


I also agree with this. But I posted because she does not seem to have
issues with guarding her food in other ways. She freely lets us mess
with her bowl, pick it up, take it away, etc. No problems, no evil
eye, no complaints at all. We read the book and think we understand it
- we want her (and him) to know that it is OUR food, and they get it
when WE say so, because we say so, but if they obey, they will always
be taken care of. But as I said, they don't seem to have issues with
this - only the staring/growling etc of girl pup towards boy pup, and
only as regards eating. It seems unusual. Perhaps not?

Not. It's not at all uncommon with multiple dogs, and unless you stop
it, it will escalate. It has nothing to do with whether or not she
lets *you* take stuff from her.

Mustang Sally

On 8 Mar 2005 06:03:32 -0800, "The Bill Mattocks"
wrote:



Appreciate the advice. Won't happen NOW. I'm at work. Won't happen
tonight - I have a church meeting. Might be tomorrow.

Send your wife. Go between work and church. Go on your lunch hour.

I'm not arguing with you about your advice - I'm going to try it. But
why would a crate meal be messier than a kitchen meal? I dunno, which
is messier, eating dinner in your house or eating dinner in your car?
The floor is easier to dust, sweep, mop - the inside of the crate, less
so. That's all.

I don't know what would need mopping - dogs eat everything, including
spilled out of dish stuff, and it's done. Don't have bedding in the
crates, wipe them out with a paper towel if needed, but I can't
imagine why it would be. Last I checked, dogs dont' DRIVE while in
their crates ;-D They eat out of the same vessel whether on floor
or in crate (unlike humans who tend to eat off plates in the house and
out of bags in the car).


--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfr...ence/my_photos

Crates or tethering would stop this.

You mean tether them in the house? For how long? I kinda like them to
be able to roam about. We have designated several rooms that they
*can* be in, several more that they're not allowed to go into. There
is some testing of boundaries, but they seem to have mastered the
concept.

Stop smacking her on her bottom - it makes no sense.

I mean no disrespect, but can you tell me why it makes no sense? I
don't 'beat' the dogs, just a quick smack on the bottom to get their
attention, which it seems to do. I would smack a misbehaving child on
the bottom, why not a dog?

Leave leashes on the dogs so you can give a more timely and effective
correction for cat chasing.

I am picturing the lamps and so forth crashing down in my house as the
dogs wend their way between them and then run away, tangling the leash
and pulling down whatever is in the way. Yikes. Believe me, if they
chase the cat, it happens right in front of us - we don't let them in
the room where the cat hangs out, and the only place they co-mingle is
when they are in the living room and we are there too.

Start using management and teaching the behavior you DO want, more
than correcting behavior that's already happening.

I'm a manager at work, and I confess I don't have the SLIGHTEST idea
what you're talking about. I can't very well 'lead by example' as I
don't ordinarily take food away from my wife or the dogs, nor do I do
resource hogging. I can't list my expectations, because I can't get
the dog to sign her list of obligations. ???

How does one lead in this case?

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

On 8 Mar 2005 06:14:18 -0800, "The Bill Mattocks"
wrote:



You mean tether them in the house? For how long? I kinda like them to
be able to roam about. We have designated several rooms that they
*can* be in, several more that they're not allowed to go into. There
is some testing of boundaries, but they seem to have mastered the
concept.


Tether while they eat. Neither one can come running over to the
other.


Stop smacking her on her bottom - it makes no sense.

I mean no disrespect, but can you tell me why it makes no sense? I
don't 'beat' the dogs, just a quick smack on the bottom to get their
attention, which it seems to do. I would smack a misbehaving child on
the bottom, why not a dog?


Well, let's not get into what's appropriate for children. Let's speak
dog. Ever seen a dog smack another dog's bottom? Nope. They grab
each other's scruff, face, all sorts of things, but spanking isn't in
their language. It only makes her fearyour hand IMO.


Leave leashes on the dogs so you can give a more timely and effective
correction for cat chasing.

I am picturing the lamps and so forth crashing down in my house as the
dogs wend their way between them and then run away, tangling the leash
and pulling down whatever is in the way. Yikes. Believe me, if they
chase the cat, it happens right in front of us - we don't let them in
the room where the cat hangs out, and the only place they co-mingle is
when they are in the living room and we are there too.

My dogs and cats all have free roam - and new ones learn fastest that
way. Supervised leash dragging is not getting tangle in anything.
What are the dogs doing on tables with lamps? ;-D

I'm a manager at work, and I confess I don't have the SLIGHTEST idea
what you're talking about. I can't very well 'lead by example' as I
don't ordinarily take food away from my wife or the dogs, nor do I do
resource hogging. I can't list my expectations, because I can't get
the dog to sign her list of obligations. ???

How does one lead in this case?

A pawprint is easy! ;-D

You make the dogs follow your rules. Sit and wait for permission to
eat. Supervision - closely - so evil eyes are not allowed. You CAN
list your expectations by enforcing them. Do this, don't do that.
It's that simple, really.




--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfr...ence/my_photos

I meant to add - are you doing any TRAINING with them? Class would be

a great place for both of them to get work in each other's presence.
That's what leadership is about.

We live in a very small town. Very small. No training classes we
could attend. We get this all the time, believe me. It's a one-hour
drive to buy non-grocery-store dog food.

We do take them out on their leashes and - dang it, what's that thing
called - not a collar, the thing that wraps around them. Can't recall,
you know what i mean. We practice heel, sit, stay, and we're working
on lay down.

You're discovering the downside of getting littermates (there are
many). Doing individual things with them is really important and you
haven't gotten off to a great start by having them share a crate, so
remedy that asap.

Well, we wanted two so that they would not be lonely during the day -
we both work, although one of us always comes home for lunch to be with
them. I've seen what one lonely and destructive puppy can do.

Structure, respect, teaching - all good things. Hitting on the bottom

or anywhere else - not good things. Scaring dogs isn't the idea -
teaching them is.

I don't want to scare the dog. Just get her attention. I have to
disagree on how effective this is. I'm 43 years old. I got spanked,
etc. You know the yada yada.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 09:10:20 -0500, Janet B
wrote:

On 8 Mar 2005 06:03:32 -0800, "The Bill Mattocks"
wrote:



Appreciate the advice. Won't happen NOW. I'm at work. Won't happen
tonight - I have a church meeting. Might be tomorrow.

Send your wife. Go between work and church. Go on your lunch hour.

I'm not arguing with you about your advice - I'm going to try it. But
why would a crate meal be messier than a kitchen meal? I dunno, which
is messier, eating dinner in your house or eating dinner in your car?
The floor is easier to dust, sweep, mop - the inside of the crate, less
so. That's all.

I don't know what would need mopping - dogs eat everything, including
spilled out of dish stuff, and it's done. Don't have bedding in the
crates, wipe them out with a paper towel if needed, but I can't
imagine why it would be. Last I checked, dogs dont' DRIVE while in
their crates ;-D They eat out of the same vessel whether on floor
or in crate (unlike humans who tend to eat off plates in the house and
out of bags in the car).

If the OP is concerned that eating in crates is going to present a big
cleanliness problem, he can get one of those rack things that hook
onto the inside of the crate door and set the bowl in that.

8 out of 12 of the dogs living here eat in crates, and there's no
problem with mess.

Mustang Sally

on 2005-03-08 at 06:14 wrote:

You mean tether them in the house? For how long?

while they're eating, until you can solve the crate shortage
problem. you could also put the dogs in separate rooms (e.g.
feed on in the kitchen and one in the laundry room).
whatever it takes, you need to make sure that the female
cannot give the male the evil eye or attack him while he's
trying to eat. a) he deserves to eat in peace and b) every
time the female is allowed to pick on him, it makes the
problem that much more serious and difficult to solve.

I mean no disrespect, but can you tell me why it makes no
sense?

it's overkill. there are other, more effective ways to get a
dog's attention.

I am picturing the lamps and so forth crashing down in my
house as the dogs wend their way between them and then run
away, tangling the leash and pulling down whatever is in the
way.

again, tether the leash to yourself. it's not a permanent
solution, but with puppies, tethering the dog to you is a very
good way to make sure they don't get into stuff and don't
start bad habits. it also gives you an opportunity to give
the dog lots of feedback on what is and what is not
acceptable.

Yikes. Believe me, if they chase the cat, it happens right
in front of us - we don't let them in the room where the cat
hangs out, and the only place they co-mingle is when they are
in the living room and we are there too.

if the dog(s) were tethered, there would be no opportunity for
either of them to chase the cat.

really, the cat shouldn't have to put up with dogs chasing it.
it's not fair. it can also be dangerous for both cat and
dogs. the dogs could hurt the cat (things can get out of hand
*very* quickly) or the cat could seriously injure the dog
(claws beat skin, dontchaknow).

I'm a manager at work, and I confess I don't have the
SLIGHTEST idea what you're talking about.

control the dogs' environment so that opportunities to
misbehave are lessened.

How does one lead in this case?

this is where an obedience class might be in your and your
dogs' best interests. working with your dogs will teach them
to look to you as their leader. this is *especially*
important when the dogs are litter mates. they already have
each other, so why do they need you?

--
shelly
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com/ (updated dailyish, apparently)