Inhumane treatment of animals and humans can be found in abundance
around here. What ever happened to kindness and being polite? What
symptoms do you have that are causing you to be unkind?

From: "Jerry Howe" -
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 18:12:17 GMT
Subject: Poo Eating

Hello People,:

Hello lyingdogDUMMY,

"Antonio Eduardo Katz" wrote in message
...

"Paul B" =AD wrote:

People come here asking for advice, "How do I
stop my dog from eating poo?" and they want to
know how to train the dog so it stops, not get stupid
comments like " pick up the poo so it won't eat it".

Yo, Paul...they got good advice...CLEAN UP AFTER
THEIR DOGS.

You say that because WE know why you don't HAVE
any training advice for this problem. The TRAINING
ADVICE you would have to give, would require BEATING
THE DOG.

If you think's there's a quick and easy way of training
a dog not to eat its own ****, especially after the behavior
has been strongly REINFORCED over time, and without
using LOTS OF PUNISHMENT, then go right ahead and tell
everyone here how to do it, okay?

He already did. Long ago. He explained HOWE
my instructions broke his dogs of eating the kat
food, kat litter, sleeping on the couch, digging
holes, and escaping the fence...

Seems you got a short memory. And that's not all...

Why just whine about other people?

Whine? You're supposed to be the expert.
Give us some TRAINIG ADVICE.

You know, I'm surprised you came back here
again to face such utter embarassment. You
insult yourself, as you try to insult every reader
and every dog with your koehler training. I'll
post some below for ya...

And if any other trainer out there would like to
take a crack at it, please feel free to tell us how
*you'd* do it, too.

The same way we snake proof and poison proof,
and teach them not to get on the couch, and not
to eat kat poo, and kat food, and not to jump the
fence, chew furniture, counter surf, shall I continue?
Not to bark, not to whine, not to jump, not to dig
holes, bark excessively, SHALL I CONTINUE?

Yes, STEP BY STEP.

Look up today's post "sound distraction and praise technique."

This is about the stupidest thread I've ever seen
on this newsgroup and that covers a lot of ground.

Your right about that. This question about $#!T covers EVERYTHING we
been fighting about since I came in
here to DISCUSS these matters with you and our Gang
Of Thugs...

EVERYTHING YOU COULD POSSIBLY WANT TO
TRAIN YOUR DOG, can be done MORE QUICKLY
and MORE PROFICIENTLY, using NON FORCE,
NON CONFRONTATIONAL methods. Even a five
year old child can do it, with a little of mommy's
help (That would be to provide the can, pennies,
and scotch tape.).

Geeeeeeeeeez...just CLEAN UP AFTER YOUR
DOGS and the "problem" goes away overnight!

You scout out your dog's behind if that's what you
like. Your BUDDY marybeth enjoys the convienience
of letting her dogs eat it before it his the deck. And
blackman likes to spice it up with Volcano Hot Sauce
and feed it back to the dog...

You'd have to brutalize the dog to train him, that's why
you should take them other bums with you, and go
somewehre that kind of advice is appreciated.

We dont want to play with poo, or stick our nose up
the dog's butt every moment he's outside, and we
don't want to tolerate that beahvior, and we don't
want to worry about it, SO WE TRAIN THE DOG!

AMAZING, Eh? Huh? Eh? Eh? Huh? Huh? Huh? Eh? Eh? Huh?

I assume most posters have more than a wafer
of intelligence and realise that picking up the poo
b4 the dog does is not a very ractical solution but
realise how obvious a suggestion like that is.

If it's so freakin' obvious, why aren't they doing it?????

Picking up the yard isn't the problem. That's a NON SOLUTION.

Training dogs not to eat **** of any kind is not that hard.

Then tell us how you do it, STEP BY STEP, Paul!

What your doing is ADMITTING you don't know HOWE.

Right here, between the arrow heads, so everyone can see it:
----------------

SEE MY POST "SOUND DISTRACTION AND PRAISE
TECHNIQUE" -------------------

UNDERSTAND?

The fact that you don't clean up after your dog everytime
it goes in the backyard does not mean you are a disgusting
SOB,

No, its means you're a *LAZY* SOB.

You got it. That's why I train dogs for a living. I don't
have to bust my butt to do it. Sit right here and teach
people like Paul what he needed to know to be able
to train his dog to do anything he wants, WITHOWET
HURTING HIM.

That's what's really killing you bums. You bums even
try to say using sound is aversive, just to be able to
deny we're NOT hurting dogs. GIVE UP!

a couple of dog poo's lying in the yard for a
day is not going to spark a national health hazard.

Who said it was???????

Then why not leave it till later?

Come on Paul, tell us all how to get a dog who has
been eating **** for a long time (i.e., the behavior is
strongly reinforced), and without using PUNISHMENT,
to stop.

SEE? You can't train a dog without HURTING HIM.

Come on, buddy...the stage is all yours.

It's called CONDITIONING.

Dogman


Here's Disciple Paulie:

Disciple Paulie Sez: "No One Understands How Wits End
Training Really Works, They Assume It's All Nicey Nicey
And don't Realise It's A Very Disciplined Method That
Deals With Any Situation And The Foundation Is Built
On Trust And Understanding."

Disciple Paulie Writes:

I've never forced my dogs to do anything, I tell them
they are good dogs and they seem to follow me, once
I told them they were bad dogs and they ran away from
me, now I only ever tell them they are good dogs and
they always are, always.

Trust your dog, ask it to do your request and
say "good dog" sincerely at the end of the
request and I bet you'll find your dog thinking
then responding everytime.

A bit of respect works wonders, the same rule
applies to every aspect of the relationship with
your dog.

Obedience and affection are not related, if they
were everyone would have obedient dogs.

Paul.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


From: Paul B )
Subject: Dog vs cat food (stealing cat food)
Date: 2001-03-03 22:18:03 PST

It's possible to teach a dog not to eat out of a cat
bowl without too much difficulty.

My dogs don't touch the food in the cat bowls although
Roz licks up any bits that have been dropped around
the bowls
:-)

I used a can with stones in it to create a distraction
anytime the dogs tried to eat the cats food, followed
with immediate praise. It worked a treat.

The cats bowls are down all the time, usually there is
food left over but the dogs don't eat it, even if we
go out and leave the dogs with access inside through a
dog door.

Paul

--
Obedience and affection are not related, if they
were everyone would have obedient dogs.

See the dogs, cats, us and pics of NZ etc at my
homepage.....

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/paulbousie/index.html

Updated regularly (last time 23 Jan 01) so keep coming
back!!!

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D

"Paul B" wrote in message
...

********, the manual has no dangerous suggestions at
all, people who find the manual useful are those
that don't need to control a dog to satisfy their
own ego but simply want a well behaved dog that is
easy to live with. I would suggest the people who
follow the advice in his manual are people who have
already tried other inefficient methods and are fed
up with the poor results.

The more I think about the methods he suggests the
more sense it makes, the biggest problem is people
believe they have to be in control of the dog, tell
it whats right and wrong, dogs don't understand
our values and I don't believe they are capable of
understanding them either, so to train them we use
methods they understand.

That means abstract training, doing sometimes
what appears to almost be the opposite of what
makes sense to us.

If you are purely result orientated then you will
not find Jerry's manual much use, if you love your
dogs and love to work WITH them then his manual is
your dream come true. Distraction and praise works
with any dog, when you sit back and really think
about it, it's very obvious why.

When a dog is properly distracted (and praised) of a
particular behaviour then that behaviour very
quickly becomes unfulfilling so the dog will no
longer have any interest in pursuing it, whether we
are about or not, thats the key to stopping garbage
can raids and food stealing etc etc, no force, no
bad dog, just distracting it in an appropriate
manner that it no longer wishes to pursue that
behaviour.

Better than hiding the garbage can eh?
Paul

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D

From: Paul B )
Subject: Leadership
Date: 2002-03-08 02:59:17 PST

I really believe our leadership qualities determine to
a very large degree how our dogs behave. But I don't
subscribe to the "dominance" mentality where a dog is
made to feel subordinate. With a good trainer the dog
may decide to feel that way, but only because the
quality leader sets such a good example that the dog
feels secure enough in the leaders ability to handle
and completely control any situation that it's
intervention isn't required.

This was reconfirmed when I recently re-read Jan
Fennels book "The Dog listener" and she emphasises how
important good "leadership" is, when I first read her
book I seem to remember thinking she was a "dominance"
trainer, but that's not the case she simply reiterates
over that dogs need leadership, an authority figure
they can trust and respect, not someone who tries to
dominate them.

What's the difference? One will subordinate a dog, use
intimidation etc to achieve their goal, the other goes
about their business in such away that the dog feels
compelled to comply but is not obliged to and offers
them it's genuine respect.

Paul

From: Paul B )
Subject: Help: Family dog now snarls a young kids
Date: 2000-10-19 02:56:56 PST

That's what dogs do to dogs in the wild, in the wild
that may be appropriate dog to dog behaviour but we as
people are putting our dogs into a domestic
surrounding and train them to behave appropriately.
One thing I do believe is that dogs respond to the way
they are treated, you yell at a dog everytime it's
aggressive you are telling the dog not to be
aggressive by being aggressive to it!! Hardly a valid
lesson.

Do you really think biting the dogs neck is going to
teach the dog the respect you expect from it? It will
more probably find you untrustworthy and someone
to be wary of, not a good role model.

If we want dogs to behave appropriately in a domestic
environment then we need to set a good example. The
alpha rollover is certainly not a good example.

Why do you have to be the "boss", my dogs are obedient
and very well behaved, I don't consider myself the
"boss", yet I have complete control over them. I
don't dominate them or force control, they obey
because they want to, life is good for them and they
have no reason to dispute my "requests". If I did
need to subordinate them then I'd call them to me and
get them to sit in front of me. That's a subordinate
position, but it's not intimidating to them.

Paul

--

From: Paul B )
Subject: When punishment is necessary - what
method??? Date: 2003-03-08 21:58:59 PST

"Leah" -OFF wrote in message
...
I consider sound distraction an aversive. A shaken
penny can is the same as a crisply said "Eh!" It
stops the dog from performing a behavior because
yes, it distracts. But it distracts by being
unpleasant to the dog.

Why do you assume there is an unpleasantness
associated with sound distraction? As an example I
used in my first post a neighbours door slamming shut
while you are typing to RPDB distracts you and stops
you from typing while you contemplate it, but isn't by
definition unpleasant, it's merely a distraction that
stops you (momentarily) focusing on your typing.
The same goes for sound distraction with dogs, it
takes their mind off what they are focusing on,
contemplating, then resuming what they were doing,
only to be distracted again.

And I disagree that the dog doesn't associate the
sound with his behavior. Of course he does - that's
how he becomes conditioned not to perform the
behavior.

Every time he does it, he gets a mild aversive.

The dog is merely distracted, as a person would be who
is typing and hears the "CRASH" of the neighbours door
slamming shut would be. There is no association with
the door slamming and the stopping of typing yet you
were distracted and stopped typing albeit momentarily
to ponder the noise.

I'm not sure I understand the reason for extended
praise, but I can't see that it hurts anything - as
long as the dog is continuing to display appropriate
behavior while you're praising. I think praise at
the moment he stops the behavior would be more
effective, since a dog understands the association
between a stimulus and the behavior he is displaying
at the moment, not 15 seconds later.

Dogs don't ponder over things as "we" do, they think
very differently, in visual, smell and sound, dogs
don't think human or have the mental capacity
to form sentences or possibly even reason, they act
instinctively, they understand pleasant from
unpleasant, the immediate praise grabs and holds
their attention, the distraction may only get them
pondering for a half second that's all the time we
have to grab their attention and focus their thoughts
on "us" so immediate praise is required for focusing
on us, and not focusing on the behaviour we don't
want, there is no good or bad in the dogs mind, there
simply "is" and if the dog is unable to focus on the
behaviour we don't want then it will try another
behaviour, ultimately one that is acceptable to both
of us but since it's the dogs "idea" it's happy to use
that behaviour and doesn't associate "us" with it's
new behaviour. The dog isn't aware that we have
manipulated it to perform as we desire and as such
there is no "confrontation'.

If "eh" doesn't work to distract the dog, I will
usually use another sound distraction, but make it a
pleasant one - such as calling the dog's name in a
high, sing-song voice. That usually gets a head
swiveled in my direction, so that I can refocus him
into an appropriate behavior and reward.

With the method of training I use a distraction has to
come from a different direction each time otherwise
the dog gets "wise" to what's happening, by varying
the direction the dog is less likely to anticipate the
distraction and become familiar with it.

The recall is the default and if the dog fails to respond
after 4 distractions I'll ask for a recall, this puts the
dog
sitting directly in front of me, a subordinate position
but
I use it simply regain control of the dog, not to
discourage
the unwanted behaviour as by that stage the association
between the behaviour and the recall is lost.

I then encourage the dog to resume the inappropriate
behaviour so I can distract it with better timing.

Paul

From: Paul B )
Subject: My Philosophy on Obedience
Training (kind of long)

Date: 2002-06-09 00:47:36 PST

"nancyj" wrote in message
...
This is from my current book! Making Friends:
Training Your Dog Positively by Linda Colflesh

(Note: She considers my puppy dominant assertive or
bold, which I agree with since aggressive and
aggression tend to get confused.)

THE ISSUE OF DOMINANCE

Many dog trainers believe that you must dominate
your dog in order to successfully live with him.
Obedience training classes ring with the cry, "You
must dominate your dog!" and "You must be the pack
leader, the alpha figure", a sentiment echoed in
many dog training books. It is also claimed that if
you don't dominate your dog, he will try to
dominate you. Your dog is the enemy; obedience class
is often the battleground.

I don't agree with this. You don't have to dominate
your dog in order to train him and have a good
relationship. The justification given for
this insistence on dominance is that a dog's human
family is a substitute for a dog pack, and that the
social organization of dog packs, like wolf packs,
is based on a dominance hierarchy. This dominance
hierarchy is supposedly maintained by displays of
dominance on the part of the pack leader. Therefore,
the reasoning goes, human owners should be dominant
over their dogs.

I don't subscribe to the dominance ideas either.
However I do believe a hieracy needs to be established
in the family pack. It's important for the dogs peace
of mind and security to know how the family pack is
structured, when this is achieved the dog will be less
anxious, more confident and much more obiedient. I
teach the family pack hieracy with various exercises
and reinforce it with daily interaction.

I see it that if the dog is "pulling your chain" then you
are on route to potential problems. By pulling your
chain I mean anytime the dog behaves in a manner that
contradicts what it knows ie. not obeying a request,
not recalling, attention getting behaviours etc. From
my experience when people have commented that my dog
thinks it's "dominant", it's nothing more than an
obiedience or behaviour issue, both which can be delt
with appropriate training.

Dog owners will improve their relationships with
their dogs by placing emphasis on respect, clear
communication, and mutual cooperation, rather than
on dominance. The domestication of dogs has given us
power over them by virtue of their dependence on us
for survival.

We must control our dogs for their safety and
well-being, but we must be careful not to abuse
this power. Instead, we should use this power
in a positive way to allow our dogs to live a happy
life and to give ourselves the full benefit of our
relationship with dogs.

Yes, also add to that consistency, I mean been
consistent in how you react to your dog, if your dog
knows it can always approach you and never be
reprimanded then it will never have an issue being
close to you no matter what it has done.

Paul


From: Paul B )
Subject: My golden bit my 5 year old son
Date: 2001-02-04 18:27:00 PST

How dogs behave in the wild is a far cry from how we
want them to behave in a domestic environment. I
don't know how my dogs view our setup and it doesn't
really matter, if there is a problem I deal with it
with appropriate methods to extinguish the behaviour
but not by challenging the dog or dictating to
them.

I play kong on a rope tug with both my dogs all the
time and they don't try to challenge me when I go to
pick up the kong if it's lying about, to them it's a
game, not a test of pack hierarchy.

A dog shouldn't even 'want' to bite the kids, if you
have to 'forbid' it then there are other problems with
the relationship with the dog.

I doubt a dog views the world as "fair" or "unfair",
things just are in a dogs world.

Dogs may live with a "pack" mentality in the wild but
people don't, we live within a family environment, and
that is what we want our dogs to live in too, so we
need to teach our dogs to live in such an environment,
that environment isn't full of dominance and
challenging one another, but friendly, open, welcoming
and most of all respectful. We respect each others
privacy and tolerate each others differences and
tantrums etc. That's how we want our dog to behave.
If a dog has a behaviour that's inappropriate then we
teach it so that behaviour ceases as with any other
family member, no need to challenge and dominate. It
seems to me if you put a dog in an environment where
it's been challenged and dominated it will in turn
learn to challenge and dominate where it can, if you
put it in an environment where it can learn and make
mistakes and be taught appropriate behaviour then
that's how it will behave.

If the dog is made part of the family, then as well as
it becoming part of "our family" we become part of
"it's family" or even "it's pack" if you want and it
will protect & not challenge if everything is in
order.

It's a mystery to me why you wouldn't trust a dog left
alone with children, if everything's been done
properly the dog will have no desire what so ever to
hurt the kids, rather it will want to play and enjoy
their company,.

Paul