On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 21:03:05 GMT, Robin Nuttall
wrote:




I don't. Whether or not there are physical signs depends on numerous
factors such as the amount of alcohol consumed and the point in the
pregnancy at which is was consumed. In the absence of physical signs,
and if the biological mother didn't disclose her alcohol consumption,
the adoption agency would have been unaware of it. Plus, Diddy's son
was adopted at a time when there was much less awareness of FAS and
its effects.


Sorry, but that's untrue. I knew about FAS even when I was a child, so
in the 1970s it was already a well-known phenomenon. If Diddy's son was
born in 1980, the disease was certainly not unknown, in fact it was well
known at that time.

OK, I was thinking he was older than that. But I still think there
was less awareness of FAS and its effects 20-25 years ago than there
is now, and that's all I said. I didn't say FAS was unknown.

Hell, when I was born, obs weren't necessarily telling their pregnant
patients to quit smoking and were still prescribing amphetamines to
prevent excess weight gain.

Mustang Sally

On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:10:05 GMT, Tara wrote:

sighthounds & siberians wrote:
The hurting animals is
something else altogether, possibly indicative of a personality
disorder, and medications don't fix those.

I'm curious about why you say that. That's really not entirely true at
all. A Personality Disorder is, from what I understand, simply a string
of behavioral symptoms that fit together in certain ways. There is no
inference on causes or sources for the disorder inherent in its
presence. In other words, its merely a diagnostical shorthand (and yes,
I just pulled that term out of my ass in lieu of looking up the techie
term ;-) for different groupings of symptoms.

My DSM is at the office. From a web site on personality disorders:
"Background: A personality disorder, as defined in the Diagnostic and
Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association, Fourth
Edition (DSM-IV), is an enduring pattern of inner experience and
behavior that differs markedly from the expectations of the
individual's culture, is pervasive and inflexible, has an onset in
adolescence or early adulthood, is stable over time, and leads to
distress or impairment. Personality disorders are a long-standing and
maladaptive pattern of perceiving and responding to other people and
to stressful circumstances. Ten personality disorders, grouped into 3
clusters (ie, A, B, C), are defined in the DSM-IV." There have been
causative factors identified in personality disorders. Medications
can be useful in treating some personality disorders, but they are
considered adjuncts to psychotherapy; they are not considered
curative. For example, I'm not aware of any medication used for
narcissistic personality disorder, though I could, of course, be
wrong.

I have sympathy for the pain endured as well. No one won out in that
situation. Everyone lost something major. You're right. It is a sad
thing.

That doesn't even begin to describe it.

Mustang Sally

sighthounds & siberians wrote:

OK, I was thinking he was older than that. But I still think there
was less awareness of FAS and its effects 20-25 years ago than there
is now, and that's all I said. I didn't say FAS was unknown.

Even with ADHD, a disorder my older son has, there is so much new
information coming out every single day yet doctors have aware of the
disorder since the late 60's. There are a lot of lay people who still
believe that ADHD doesn't exist or that it's over-diagnosed (HA!), or
my personal favorite - believe it to be a behavior issue. eyeroll We
have pediatricians that know little about the disorder while
prescribing inappropriate drugs and *public* schools that punish
children with neuro-biological disorders by solitary confinement. :-(

Yeah, I still think we have a long, long way to go...my younger second
son has autism and dispraxia and I consider myself lucky to live in a
large metropolitan area with excellent, qualified resources. There are
a lot of people out there that don't have access to qualified
professionals; grossly misguided in their treatment or diagnostics.

Suffice it to say, I think it's well within reach that FAS wasn't fully
understood 25 years ago. I'm not sure all of these disorders are fully
understood today and how it measurably affects each individual.

On 14 Apr 2005 06:16:28 -0700, wrote:


sighthounds & siberians wrote:

OK, I was thinking he was older than that. But I still think there
was less awareness of FAS and its effects 20-25 years ago than there
is now, and that's all I said. I didn't say FAS was unknown.

Even with ADHD, a disorder my older son has, there is so much new
information coming out every single day yet doctors have aware of the
disorder since the late 60's. There are a lot of lay people who still
believe that ADHD doesn't exist or that it's over-diagnosed (HA!), or
my personal favorite - believe it to be a behavior issue. eyeroll We
have pediatricians that know little about the disorder while
prescribing inappropriate drugs and *public* schools that punish
children with neuro-biological disorders by solitary confinement. :-(

My brother was diagnosed with ADHD in the 60s and treated with Ritalin
by his pediatrician. I don't recall how old he was when he was
diagnosed, but his learning disabilities were not discovered until he
was nearly halfway through grade school. Today, at least in most
school districts, they would have been diagnosed by the time he got to
first grade, or at least it would have been known that he had learning
disabilities. DH had ADD in the 60s, too, but it went undiagnosed. A
good friend most likely had ADHD and spent most of her first several
years in school in the coat room; she also had family problems so huge
that there would most likely be early intervention today, where then
there was none. We'd like to think things have progressed, but not
always and not everywhere.

Suffice it to say, I think it's well within reach that FAS wasn't fully
understood 25 years ago. I'm not sure all of these disorders are fully
understood today and how it measurably affects each individual.

I'm pretty sure they aren't fully understood. With all the advances
in science and medicine, the brain still remains largely a mystery in
many respects. My neurosurgeon arrogantly told me that the brain
surgery I had was routine - - yet he cannot explain why I have
permanent nystagmus and cerebellar ataxia.

Mustang Sally

wrote in message
oups.com...

sighthounds & siberians wrote:

OK, I was thinking he was older than that. But I still think there
was less awareness of FAS and its effects 20-25 years ago than there
is now, and that's all I said. I didn't say FAS was unknown.

Even with ADHD, a disorder my older son has, there is so much new
information coming out every single day yet doctors have aware of the
disorder since the late 60's. There are a lot of lay people who still
believe that ADHD doesn't exist or that it's over-diagnosed (HA!), or

Not just lay people, and the drugs used to treat adhd have some pretty scary
side effects. They call them side effects, like those whispered undertones in
the drug ads on tv: "may cause cerebral hemmorage and death" - but those seem
to be some pretty final "drug reactions" to me.

my personal favorite - believe it to be a behavior issue. eyeroll We

No eyerolling necessary, sometimes behaviourial issues are gasp behaviourial
issues! It's a shock, I know.

have pediatricians that know little about the disorder while
prescribing inappropriate drugs and *public* schools that punish
children with neuro-biological disorders by solitary confinement. :-(

Yeah, I still think we have a long, long way to go...my younger second
son has autism and dispraxia and I consider myself lucky to live in a
large metropolitan area with excellent, qualified resources. There are
a lot of people out there that don't have access to qualified
professionals; grossly misguided in their treatment or diagnostics.

Autism is such a weird, fascinating disorder. I actually work with a woman who
is autistic - she wears t shirts when it's freezing in the warehouse and she has
this strange smile fixed on her face constantly which I think was pounded into
her by the "autism nazi squad".

Suffice it to say, I think it's well within reach that FAS wasn't fully
understood 25 years ago. I'm not sure all of these disorders are fully
understood today and how it measurably affects each individual.

Maybe not publicly but health care professionals knew what it was 25 years ago.
Weren't professionals involved, a little, when it came to placing children? I
hate people.

Jean

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:33:25 -0500, diddy
wrote:


Well to be honest, He has never been diagnosed as FAS. I'm assuming it
fits. Nothing was ever mentioned to me from professionals that this was a
possibility.
But we did meet his mother when he was almost 17. And she said she's been
alcohol and drug dependent since she was 14. She had him at 18. By the
time we had put 2 + 2 together and assumed the two might be related and
possibly caused his issues, he was already grown and an adult.

If his biological mother consumed alcohol during her pregnancy in any
amount, FAS is a pretty safe bet, whether it was diagnosed or not.

I don't think any caseworker involved with him ever knew of his mothers
alcohol and drug dependency.

Probably not, if she didn't tell them, and that makes it difficult to
diagnose.

As for FAS, it's just a plausible guess, NOT a real diagnosis. And he had
been tersted for ADD and he did not meet all the criteria. They wanted
to treat him for it though. In fact, they never gave him a "label" for
anything they tested him for. The only thing they came up with was that he
had mild retardation.

Which can result from FAS. Other things too, of course.

It was very frustrating because everyone dealing with him knew there was a
problem, but professionals couldn't find anywhere that he "FIT". It
mattered to them not, that his life never "Fit" anywhere either.
I am sure they weren't aware about his mother's alcohol and drugs, or they
might have actually diagnosed FAS (my guess) and perhaps there might have
been something they might have done to help him.

Maybe things would have gone differently if it all happened today - -
maybe his problems could have been better identified - - but even
then, there's no guarantee about the outcome. Yesterday I mentioned a
friend who adopted 3 children whose biological mothers were on crack
and/or alcohol. Her son, a big, handsome boy, has the most severe
emotional problems even though he had the least exposure.

Mustang Sally

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:39:27 -0400, "Luna" wrote:

Even with ADHD, a disorder my older son has, there is so much new
information coming out every single day yet doctors have aware of the
disorder since the late 60's. There are a lot of lay people who still
believe that ADHD doesn't exist or that it's over-diagnosed (HA!), or

Not just lay people, and the drugs used to treat adhd have some pretty scary
side effects. They call them side effects, like those whispered undertones in
the drug ads on tv: "may cause cerebral hemmorage and death" - but those seem
to be some pretty final "drug reactions" to me.

my personal favorite - believe it to be a behavior issue. eyeroll We

No eyerolling necessary, sometimes behaviourial issues are gasp behaviourial
issues! It's a shock, I know.

Well, guess what. ADD and ADHD aren't behavioral issues. They
*cause* behavior problems.

Mustang Sally

Tara wrote in :

I agree, it IS really weird that our brains can't seem to figure out our
brains.


I always liken it to computers -- when the brain's not working, it's like
the computer's operating system malfunctioning -- it can't fix the problem
because it *is* the problem.

--
Catherine
& Zoe & Queenie

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:58:52 +0000 (UTC), ceb
wrote:

Tara wrote in :

I agree, it IS really weird that our brains can't seem to figure out our
brains.


I always liken it to computers -- when the brain's not working, it's like
the computer's operating system malfunctioning -- it can't fix the problem
because it *is* the problem.

I like that. And another person's brain can't figure out what's wrong
with your brain or my brain, any more than my computer can figure out
what's wrong with yours.

But a brain can fix a computer, so why can't a computer fix a brain?

Mustang Sally

"sighthounds & siberians" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:39:27 -0400, "Luna" wrote:

Even with ADHD, a disorder my older son has, there is so much new
information coming out every single day yet doctors have aware of the
disorder since the late 60's. There are a lot of lay people who still
believe that ADHD doesn't exist or that it's over-diagnosed (HA!), or

Not just lay people, and the drugs used to treat adhd have some pretty scary
side effects. They call them side effects, like those whispered undertones in
the drug ads on tv: "may cause cerebral hemmorage and death" - but those seem
to be some pretty final "drug reactions" to me.

my personal favorite - believe it to be a behavior issue. eyeroll We

No eyerolling necessary, sometimes behaviourial issues are gasp behaviourial
issues! It's a shock, I know.

Well, guess what. ADD and ADHD aren't behavioral issues. They
*cause* behavior problems.

Here's more in the guess what category - ADHD is thought by many to be grossly
overdiagnosed and consequently many children are medicated because their parents
and their schools can't control them. Not everything is organic, let's just
call this the cigar is sometimes just a cigar anti-syndrome.

Stamp their foreheads with those four letters though, that's easy. Perhaps we
should just sprinkle prozac on everyone's cornflakes as a matter of course?

I distrust the medicating of children immensely and the fact that it seems to
have become such a default coping tool makes me distrust it even more immensely.
My eldest was labelled ADHD in KINDERGARTEN and when we took him to the
psychologist to combat this we were told his problem was an abundance of
intelligence (oh, and he's doing great now, never - medicated at 20).

Otoh, another family member resisted medicating her son until it just got worse
than bad - when she finally relented he became much happier and more successful,
his confidence shot up and the benefits were obvious.

Moral? Caveat Emptor.

Jean






Mustang Sally