Hello everyone,

It will be at least a year before me and my wife get any pets besides
the bird that we have now. We plan to move to a rural setting with lots
of room, away from the city.

We're both pretty set on two Great Danes, but don't have much experience
with them. I've never actually "met" one at all. We've researched as
much as we possibly could about their health, personalities, and other
general requirements. We've also found a professional breeder a few
hours away.

My concern is that I've heard from different sources (None from anyone
specializing in dogs) that Great Danes are not very intelligent. It
wouldn't really keep me from getting a Great Dane, but intelligence
would be a nice asset.

So far, we've just fallen in love with the idea of a "gentle giant" and
are willing to take the extra measures to care for a dog of this size.

Can anyone confirm or deny this accusation that these dogs are not
intelligent? Or point out other tips about them from your own
experience?

Thanks a bunch,

Tony

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:03:54 -0500 Tony V. whittled these words:

We're both pretty set on two Great Danes, but don't have much experience
with them. I've never actually "met" one at all. We've researched as
much as we possibly could about their health, personalities, and other
general requirements.

You should meet several first.

We've also found a professional breeder a few
hours away.

What do you mean when you use the term "professional breeder"?
Is it "professional" as in uses breeding as a source of income? Or
"professional" as in a high degree of knowledge and skill?

If you look in a health database such as OFA http://www.offa.org will you
find that breeder's dogs listed among the dogs testd for cardiomyopathy,
hypothyroidism, and hip dysplasia? And CERF?

What specifically does the breeder do to cause you to believe that you
have found a good breeder?

My concern is that I've heard from different sources (None from anyone
specializing in dogs) that Great Danes are not very intelligent. It
wouldn't really keep me from getting a Great Dane, but intelligence
would be a nice asset.

What is it that you would do with a more intelligent dog? Intelligence
and trainability are not the same thing. Able is not the same as willing.
An intelligent dog is the one that figures out how to open the garden
gate and the regrigerator. It is the one that learns to twist the door
knobs to open the doors, and to manipulate its humans into doing its
bidding. Be careful of what you wish for.

So far, we've just fallen in love with the idea of a "gentle giant" and
are willing to take the extra measures to care for a dog of this size.

Great.

Can anyone confirm or deny this accusation that these dogs are not
intelligent? Or point out other tips about them from your own
experience?

First, define what qualities you mean by "intelligent." Is that ability
to learn? or tendency to follow instruction? problem solving? or
retention of information (memory)? adaptability? ability to generalize?
tendency to recongize and distinguish environments? In my experience very
often when people say they wish for an intelligent dog what they really
prefer is an obedient dog.

The Great Dane Club of America describes the breed as having average
intelligence. That assessment is consistent with my experience. It is
generally sufficeint for a fine companion.

--
Diane Blackman
http://dog-play.com/
http://dogplay.com/Shop/

I agree with everything Diane said. Meanwhile, though, my husband and I,
having lots of experience with Danes, feel that they are (usually) extremely
intelligent--to the point that training them involves making sure they
aren't bullied and that wherever possible they can understand why they need
to do something, or they will decide for themselves there's no point, or try
to do it differently, or "get around the rules creatively", etc. Luckily
they also want, if raised right, to please their humans.

Our Saskia is 14 months old and so smart we call her stupid--because it's
too easy to start thinking of her as human. This trait gets a lot of Danes
in trouble--they learn where the treats are kept and so forth--but our girl
is also a very good girl, and although she will do things like poke the open
bag of doggie-jerky with her nose and stare appealingly at me, she can also
be trusted alone with it overnight or while we are out. This is unusual,
actually... they tend to be chow-hounds.

If you're looking for a dog that thinks it's human and wants to share your
sofa, get a Dane. They are also Velcro dogs--they glue themselves to your
every action, which although very cute can get irritating as they insist on
trying to accompany you into the bathroom or follow you back and forth while
you walk with the baby, etc., and care must be taken to prevent separation
anxiety.

I recommend that before you commit, you read and correspond at these two
websites:
http://gdls.proboards6.com
http://www.danesonline.com/dc/dcboard.php
Bear in mind that reading behavioral boards turns up a lot of people asking
for help, so it doesn't reflect the breed as a whole and can mislead you
into thinking there are lots of problems, just like if you wer to go to a
human dermatology forum you wouldn't find a whole lot of posts saying, "Hey,
everyone, there's nothing wrong with my skin!"

I'd also be happy to chat about Danes with you at any time. They're a big
commitment but if you're willing to put your heart and soul into it they are
VERY worth it. You can see lots of pictures of our girl (and our human baby,
and our neighborhood; feel free to just scroll past these) at:
http://goldenappledesign.com/blog/

Also educate yourself about Dane-specific health problems. Our girl is from
a line with no dysplasias (no guarantee, but a Very Good Thing) and we had
her stomach tacked in place during her spay to reduce the chances of a
torsion if she ever bloats. They live a lot longer these days than they used
to, as well, but you still shouldn't count on longer than 10 years.

Hope this helps,
Katrina

On 21 Apr 2005 05:28:25 GMT, wrote:

...What is it that you would do with a more intelligent dog? Intelligence
and trainability are not the same thing. Able is not the same as willing.
An intelligent dog is the one that figures out how to open the garden
gate and the regrigerator. It is the one that learns to twist the door
knobs to open the doors, and to manipulate its humans into doing its
bidding. Be careful of what you wish for.

...First, define what qualities you mean by "intelligent." Is that ability
to learn? or tendency to follow instruction? problem solving? or
retention of information (memory)? adaptability? ability to generalize?
tendency to recongize and distinguish environments? In my experience very
often when people say they wish for an intelligent dog what they really
prefer is an obedient dog.

The Great Dane Club of America describes the breed as having average
intelligence. That assessment is consistent with my experience. It is
generally sufficeint for a fine companion.

That's a fabulous treatment of that issue. I definitely want to save it.

My favorite breed is the Chow Chow. Very many people consider them to be
anything but intelligent. However, while they might not belong to "doggy
MENSA", they are quite intelligent. They know what they want, [Not all
humans can make that claim] and their guardian has to provide some
incentive, if they want their Chow Chow to do something different. I
love their arrogance! :-)


R.I.P. Chow Chows Maximas, Nightbear and Sheba. :-(

"Tony V." wrote:

Hello everyone,

It will be at least a year before me and my wife get any pets besides
the bird that we have now. We plan to move to a rural setting with lots
of room, away from the city.

Lucky you!

We're both pretty set on two Great Danes, but don't have much experience
with them. I've never actually "met" one at all. We've researched as
much as we possibly could about their health, personalities, and other
general requirements. We've also found a professional breeder a few
hours away.

A red flag went up when I read that last sentence. The phrase
"professional breeder" is one of those vague, and slightly unsettling
phrases that most often means either a puppy mill on a large scale, or a
small scale puppy mill masquerading as a responsible hobby breeder.

It may just be that your personal definition isn't what the accepted
meaning is (which is *totally* understandable, by the way), but if the
breeder considers themselves professional breeders, then I would steer
clear of them.

Diane Blackman, a regular poster on the dogs newsgroups, has put
together a wonderful website that includes some *really* great
information on how to select a responsible breeder; what to look for,
what to look out for, what questions to ask, etc.

http://dog-play.com/Admin/gettingframe.html

I would highly recommend that you spend some time reading her site and
investigating breeders.

My concern is that I've heard from different sources (None from anyone
specializing in dogs) that Great Danes are not very intelligent. It
wouldn't really keep me from getting a Great Dane, but intelligence
would be a nice asset.

Heh. In a dog that large, gentleness and trainability are FAR more
desirable than intelligence :-)
In some of the super-smart breeds, its a chore just to mentally stay one
step ahead of the dog. To have to outsmart a dog that is also bigger and
taller than half the humans involved would be....well...yikes.

Ok, I'm kidding (sort of), but not being super quick is NOT a problem,
and is often actually desirable for first time dog owners (though I
don't know if you have raised a dog in adulthood, so I'm making an
assumption here). I think the breed is lovely and a good choice for your
situation....with one possible caveat: I would hesitate to raise *two*
of them together. Often when you raise two puppies at the same time,
they tend to bond very strongly to each other, and not as strongly to
the humans. It also becomes geometrically more difficult to grapple with
any behavioral problems that might arise if they end up fueling each
other and feeding off of each others behaviors.

So far, we've just fallen in love with the idea of a "gentle giant" and
are willing to take the extra measures to care for a dog of this size.

They truly are wonderful dogs. The only BIG downsides to them (once you
get past the square footage ;-) are their short lifespans and all of the
health issues present in the breed. That's why finding a *responsible*
breeder is so critical.

Can anyone confirm or deny this accusation that these dogs are not
intelligent? Or point out other tips about them from your own
experience?

To say that they are not the "smartest" breed is not at all the same
thing as saying they aren't smart. They are wonderfully smart, sensitive
and intuitive. While I haven't had one in years, I've worked with quite
a few and I do love the breed.

Tara

Tara wrote:
snip

Ok, I'm kidding (sort of), but not being super quick is NOT a problem,
and is often actually desirable for first time dog owners (though I
don't know if you have raised a dog in adulthood, so I'm making an
assumption here). I think the breed is lovely and a good choice for your
situation....with one possible caveat: I would hesitate to raise *two*
of them together. Often when you raise two puppies at the same time,
they tend to bond very strongly to each other, and not as strongly to
the humans.

I don't know about that. I had a pair of BCs who were raised together
from the ages of 8 to 10 weeks and I never observed them to be less
strongly bonded to their human family than singleton dogs I've had over
the years. As to their bond to each other, they interacted constantly
but there was a strong element of sibling rivalry.

It also becomes geometrically more difficult to grapple with
any behavioral problems that might arise if they end up fueling each
other and feeding off of each others behaviors.

That I can agree with.

There's something else, too, about getting two pups at once. They're
babies together, they grow up together, they grow old together and,
heartbreakingly, they might die together, or very close to it. Give
some consideration to the thought of having two geriatric dogs, possibly
with multiple health issues. Imagine losing both of your dogs within a
span of weeks or months.

Been there, done that. Can't say I would *never* do it again - that
would be tempting fate. But it's something to think about.

Kathleen

Kathleen wrote:

Tara wrote:
snip

Ok, I'm kidding (sort of), but not being super quick is NOT a problem,
and is often actually desirable for first time dog owners (though I
don't know if you have raised a dog in adulthood, so I'm making an
assumption here). I think the breed is lovely and a good choice for your
situation....with one possible caveat: I would hesitate to raise *two*
of them together. Often when you raise two puppies at the same time,
they tend to bond very strongly to each other, and not as strongly to
the humans.

I don't know about that. I had a pair of BCs who were raised together
from the ages of 8 to 10 weeks and I never observed them to be less
strongly bonded to their human family than singleton dogs I've had over
the years. As to their bond to each other, they interacted constantly
but there was a strong element of sibling rivalry.

That's why I said "often". Of course it can happen, and there are dogs
that are *meant* to hunt or work in packs that do well. However, most do
not end up as strongly bonded to the handler as to each other when
raised simultaneously, and when it does, I suspect there's also a very
experienced handler involved.

It also becomes geometrically more difficult to grapple with
any behavioral problems that might arise if they end up fueling each
other and feeding off of each others behaviors.

That I can agree with.

There's something else, too, about getting two pups at once. They're
babies together, they grow up together, they grow old together and,
heartbreakingly, they might die together, or very close to it. Give
some consideration to the thought of having two geriatric dogs, possibly
with multiple health issues. Imagine losing both of your dogs within a
span of weeks or months.

I've been going through this. My cats were nearly 6 when I got my pup.
My "pup" died last year from complications stemming from his hip
replacement surgery (to the OP, remember that part about *researching
the breeder*!!!) at the age of 10 (almost). A month later, one of my
geriatric cats was diagnosed with an incurable cancer. My other cat has
IBD and his kidney levels are off. I thought last year when all this
happened was the hardest time of my life, but I suspect that'll be
beaten out when my remaining boys move on as I suspect it'll happen
within weeks or months of each other :-(

Been there, done that. Can't say I would *never* do it again - that
would be tempting fate. But it's something to think about.

Sure is.

Tara

Wow! Thank you everyone for being of such great help. I've certainly
learned some things!
My perception of a professional breader may be off. Here is the
website: http://www.dynamitedanes.com/index.htm After reading about
some of the scrutiny that is needed, perhaps I should look harder.
Meeting several is a great idea, and I never thought about the
consequences of getting two tegether.

On the upside to some of that which you all were concerned about but
didn't know much about my end is that I am currently in college (Not
college aged though he he) and am doing fantastic. If everything goes
according to plan, my wife would not work, and could spend 24 hours a
day more or less with them, and kids we have later on.

I guess to be more specific about intelligence. I probably was thinking
more about trainability, but intelligence is good too. I don't need a
dog that can learn to count or anything...... but average sounds good.

I had a Doberman Pincer years ago, and I absolutely loved everything
about that dog. It had every trait in it's personality that I could
ever want. To me, he was intelligent, protective (of course!) and
trainable. I still miss him a great deal so many years later.
My wife is not convinced that this would be a great dog. But I am
looking for one that perhaps has similar trainability and intelligence.
I realize dogs are often times different than each other much like
humans. But maybe that will help you all.

Anyway, I'll check back for any more comments and suggestions, but
THANK YOU ALL for your tremendous help. I've bookmarked many of the
suggested websites.

Tony

They live a lot longer these days than they used
to, as well, but you still shouldn't count on longer than 10 years.

This is true. However, my Dane is 12 now, and still going

Danes are wonderful, wonderful dogs, truly gentle giants. And they are
definetly not dumb I love my Dane more than any other dog I have
ever had, I am hooked on the breed

with one possible caveat: I would hesitate to raise *two*
of them together.

I totally agree. Littermates can be a big problem, especially with a
novice dog owner. They tend to bond with each other more so than with
you, and with dogs who are going to be quite large, I would recommend
you get ONE. See how it goes, learn, and then in the future maybe add
another one.

Also, make sure you buy from a responsible breeder; I've seen way too
many Danes out there with shy, fearful and aggressive temperments.
Meet the parents if you can, that will give you an idea of how the
puppies will be, temperment wise.