We just took the step of bringing home a 14 month old golden girl from
rescue, given up because the person "didn't have time to work with her."
Also noted that they seemed to have lived in 3 different places in her short
life.

When she came into rescue, she was evidently incredibly spooky, and wouldn't
come near anyone for 2 weeks. When we met her on Sunday at our breeder's
kennel--our other dog is a show golden we've had since puppyhood--she
cowered back at such things as someone crouching down at her level and
looking at her. After an hour, she was coming over for a quick pat, which
actually surprised everyone. After a day at our house, she had progressed to
the point of seeking out and accepting affection from everyone, and actually
greeting visitors upon arrival, albeit a little cautiously, and approaching
them for attention after 20 minutes or so. She is somewhat afraid of
stairs--less so after a day--and had to be carried up to the bedroom to
sleep with me and the other dog the first night. The first morning she
wouldn't come down the stairs with me and the other dog, and peed on the
floor at the top. (Although she doesn't seem inclined to submissive
urination--I think she just had to go.) She also doesn't like to leave the
kitchen, which is the first room she became familiar with. In fact, she'll
stay there when everyone else leaves. I found that if I put a kennel lead
on her and simply walk to wherever I want her to go, including the stairs,
she'll come after a very brief resistance (which I ignore). Last night, for
example, I got her to come into the living room with seven people and lie
down between us and be perfectly calm and happy--once she got there. She's
really made amazing strides in only a day.

She knows "sit," although her response is iffy. We're working on sitting at
the door before going out (on the leash, of course). Whoever owned her
taught her to beg, which I absolutely hate and find totally demeaning, so
I'm working on getting her to remain with all feet on the floor to get a
treat or her meals. She doesn't seem to know down or stay, and she has
absolutely no leash sense AT ALL. That is actually her biggest problem, she
pulls like a freight train, bolts, spooks, goes in circles,
rears.....basically acts the way a very small puppy might when you first put
a leash on her. The rescue person said that she flipped out when she tried a
gentle leader on her, but I may have to try something of that sort if I
can't get her to improve on the leash, because otherwise she can't go out
for walks and socialization and can't get excercise (there's no way she's
going off leash until I have some confidence that she won't spook and head
for the hills).

She seems to be gaining confidence fast, and I'm hoping that her spookiness
will continue to fade.

She is also the most bizarre-looking golden...her shoulders are skinny, her
behind is huge, her topline is inclined to curve, she has a fiddle
front...she moves like a dog put together from a collection of spare parts,
poor thing. She has a very sweet face, but not on a good head. It's such a
contrast to our other dog, who is well-trained, has a wonderful personality,
confidence, and is beautifully put together and well-balanced. Whoever
"bred" her should be ashamed! (The owner said she came from "a kennel in
Pennsylvania." I'm thinking Amish puppy mill.)

I don't have any experience with a dog that's had this kind of
non-upbringing, and I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions, especially
on the leash thing. (My thought at the moment is to try leash training her
with food. I'm also wondering if I should hand feed her for a few days to
get her to focus and gain her trust, although the need for that doesn't seem
to be anywhere near as dire as we originally feared.) At the moment, there
is no way I would take her to a class, because it would just overwhelm her.
And I don't need a class to train her. Socialization would be another
issue....

I don't have any experience with a dog that's had this kind of non-upbringing, and I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions, especially on the leash thing. (My thought at the moment is to try leash training her with food. I'm also wondering if I should hand feed her for a few days to
get her to focus and gain her trust, although the need for that doesn't
seem to be anywhere near as dire as we originally feared.) At the
moment, there is no way I would take her to a class, because it would
just overwhelm her.
And I don't need a class to train her. Socialization would be another
issue....


Have her wear the leash around the house, supervised of course. Pick
up the end of the leash and treat her, something yummy works best.
Encourage her to follow next to you, treat her when she is there.
Don't pull her, just encourage her to stay next to you. Once she
learns that being next to you is rewarding, she shouldn't have any
problems with the leash being on.

I encourage you to take classes, even though you say you don't need
them. Find a Positive Reinforcment based trainer, rather than one who
uses compulsion (choke chain) training. There is nothing wrong with
using food as reward, as long as you learn how to use it correctly.

Good luck!

On Tue, 31 May 2005 17:48:11 GMT, "Janet Puistonen"
wrote:

We just took the step of bringing home a 14 month old golden girl from
rescue, given up because the person "didn't have time to work with her."
Also noted that they seemed to have lived in 3 different places in her short
life...

I can't thank you enough for making this dog a part of your life.

At the shelter, I work with a lot of very frightened dogs; many of which
are not used to a leash. Since a dog that can't be petted, can't be
adopted, I have to instill some courage ASAP. Sometimes, I have to
corner them, on my hands and knees. By necessity, we go very slowly.

Dogs that won't walk on a leash also have a decreased chance of
adoption: people tend to rate them as "defective". So, I use a choke
chain--which is not for choking--and take the dogs for walks. I
sometimes have to drag them out of their run. After that, we walk when
the dog feels like walking and we stop when the dog needs to stop. As
their courage and self confidence increases. I push them harder and
harder, by keeping pressure on the leash more and more of the time. Our
pauses become fewer and fewer, and of shorter duration.

We might start out taking only two or three steps, between
encouragements, hugs, etc. And if the dog is too resistant, I do drag it
one or two steps, but this is truly unusual. Dogs might not appreciate
the leash, but they quickly learn that it isn't necessarily evil or even
painful. Our sessions always end with a hug, because their show of
courage really warms my heart.

I use a lot of gentle force, but the clock is ticking for these dogs,
when they come through the door. I'd rather see them uncomfortable
through a couple of 20 minutes sessions, than spending forever in the
landfill.

Since you don't have to rush, I recommend you two just spend time
together--some of that time on leash. Let her see that she has no
choice, but to go with you. At the same time, she'll figure out that the
leash is nothing to fear--at least, not in your hands. :-)





When I die, I want to go where dogs go!

Ronna wrote:
I don't have any experience with a dog that's had this kind of
non-upbringing, and I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions,
especially on the leash thing. (My thought at the moment is to try
leash training her with food. I'm also wondering if I should hand
feed her for a few days to
get her to focus and gain her trust, although the need for that
doesn't seem to be anywhere near as dire as we originally feared.)
At the moment, there is no way I would take her to a class, because
it would just overwhelm her.
And I don't need a class to train her. Socialization would be another
issue....


Have her wear the leash around the house, supervised of course. Pick
up the end of the leash and treat her, something yummy works best.
Encourage her to follow next to you, treat her when she is there.
Don't pull her, just encourage her to stay next to you. Once she
learns that being next to you is rewarding, she shouldn't have any
problems with the leash being on.

Interestingly, she doesn't mind having the leash *on.* It's ambulating in
the same direction in a sane manner that seems to be her issue. It's as if
once she gets outdoors she loses her mind. I have the feeling that she was
rarely walked, so she has no idea that she will be able to move about and
explore unless she forcibly drags me around and bolts hither and yon. And
it's not as if she simply acts determined to investigate particularly
interesting smells or anything. It almost seems random. She's a very odd
dog, and it is hard to tell if this behavior is learned or whether she is
innately somewhat cuckoo. Or a combination of the two, of course.

Now that she's had a couple of days to settle in, I'm going to start the
sort of reward-based leash work you describe.

I encourage you to take classes, even though you say you don't need
them. Find a Positive Reinforcment based trainer, rather than one who
uses compulsion (choke chain) training. There is nothing wrong with
using food as reward, as long as you learn how to use it correctly.

Good luck!

Why? You see, I've been to a lot of obedience classes with other dogs over
the years, and taught my older dog to do all the basics (come, sit, stay,
wait, down, stand, heel off lead and on, automatic sits, fetch) with hand
signals *or* voice commands. (I did take him to classes for quite a while,
actually, and of course they were very valuable, but he learned most of this
before he went or outside of class, especially hand signals.)

I'm certainly not saying that I am a fabulous dog trainer--I'm not, or my
older boy would have an obedience titleG--or that there is nothing to be
learned in a class, but I am reasonably competent and as far as I can see
classes would simply cause her to flip out now, and possibly for a long time
to come. I use positive reinforcement already--especially with goldens, and
especially with a spooky, fearful dog like her. So I really don't see any
benefit for *her*, not me, at this point. Maybe eventually, after a lot of
confidence building... Is there something else you think she would get out
of a class at this stage?

I agree that there is nothing wrong with using food for training, especially
at first, and especially with a dog like her. As far as the choke thing
goes, she has to be on a choke collar for safety reasons when outdoors. If
she had a plain buckle collar, she could pull out of it backwards--and
believe me, pulling backwards is one of her favorite movesG--which could
get her killed or lost.

One of my major concerns is getting her some good exercise, which I'm hoping
would improve both her physical condition and her mental state. I think I'm
going to have to use a flexi, since I don't feel I can let her loose to play
and she simply can't take a walk on a regular 6-ft lead. I'm afraid that
taking her out on the flexi will only encourage her crazy leash behavior,
but I don't see what else to do at this point.

Michael A. Ball wrote:
On Tue, 31 May 2005 17:48:11 GMT, "Janet Puistonen"
wrote:

We just took the step of bringing home a 14 month old golden girl
from rescue, given up because the person "didn't have time to work
with her." Also noted that they seemed to have lived in 3 different
places in her short life...

I can't thank you enough for making this dog a part of your life.

At the shelter, I work with a lot of very frightened dogs; many of
which are not used to a leash. Since a dog that can't be petted,
can't be adopted, I have to instill some courage ASAP. Sometimes, I
have to corner them, on my hands and knees. By necessity, we go very
slowly.

Dogs that won't walk on a leash also have a decreased chance of
adoption: people tend to rate them as "defective". So, I use a choke
chain--which is not for choking--and take the dogs for walks. I
sometimes have to drag them out of their run. After that, we walk when
the dog feels like walking and we stop when the dog needs to stop. As
their courage and self confidence increases. I push them harder and
harder, by keeping pressure on the leash more and more of the time.
Our pauses become fewer and fewer, and of shorter duration.

We might start out taking only two or three steps, between
encouragements, hugs, etc. And if the dog is too resistant, I do drag
it one or two steps, but this is truly unusual. Dogs might not
appreciate the leash, but they quickly learn that it isn't
necessarily evil or even painful. Our sessions always end with a hug,
because their show of courage really warms my heart.

I use a lot of gentle force, but the clock is ticking for these dogs,
when they come through the door. I'd rather see them uncomfortable
through a couple of 20 minutes sessions, than spending forever in the
landfill.

Since you don't have to rush, I recommend you two just spend time
together--some of that time on leash. Let her see that she has no
choice, but to go with you. At the same time, she'll figure out that
the leash is nothing to fear--at least, not in your hands. :-)


Have you ever tried a Flexi with a dog that tends to bolt? Does it make it
worse, or does it gradually accustom them to normal leash behavior?

I recall reading something years ago by a dog trainer who started out most
dogs on a very long line, and I thought that might work in her case, perhaps
combined with some food-rewarded work on a regular leash.

The problem with her is that a) she has outgrown the puppy tendency to
follow that can help with early leash training, b) she is spooky and
erratic, and c) alas, she doesn't seem to be very bright (although I'm
hoping that what this really is is lack of experience and fear).

Oh well, it's early days yet!

Why?

Because your dog will learn to listen to you with MAJOR distraction
around, which is what you want. Sure, you may be able to teach your
dog to sit and stay at home, but if she hasn't learned to be reliable
at it around other dogs, she may just forget everything she knows when
exposed to outside stimulus, especially as you say she is spooky. She
needs the socialization/exposure of a group class. I've had many
fearful dogs in classes, and sometimes we start off working at a
distance from the other dogs. We move closer as the dog gets used to
the setting. A good trainer will know how to fit your dog into a class
setting.

As for the Flexi.... I really hate those leashes, ESPECIALLY used on
dogs who bolt and have choke chains on. Sure fire way to injure your
dog, if not yourself. If you want to use a long line, get a soft
cotton clothesline and attach it to a harness. That way if the dog
does bolt, there is less chance of her hurting you or herself.

As for excercise, does she play ball? A nice half hour of fetch is
better excercise than just wandering around on the end of a leash. Are
there any fenced in areas around? That would be another option.

On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:16:43 GMT, "Janet Puistonen"
wrote:


Have you ever tried a Flexi with a dog that tends to bolt? Does it make it
worse, or does it gradually accustom them to normal leash behavior?

I recall reading something years ago by a dog trainer who started out most
dogs on a very long line, and I thought that might work in her case, perhaps
combined with some food-rewarded work on a regular leash.

The problem with her is that a) she has outgrown the puppy tendency to
follow that can help with early leash training, b) she is spooky and
erratic, and c) alas, she doesn't seem to be very bright (although I'm
hoping that what this really is is lack of experience and fear).

To be honest, I don't like Flexi leashes. I fully agree with Ronna, that
Flexis pose a serious injury risk. For me, they don't allow easy, close
control; and I really need that because the shelter is usually very
crowded and/or muddy. Very often I just need to hold the dog in
entrance, so that it makes a lot of human contact. If progress in
walking on a leash goes slow, it can be completed once the dog gets
adopted, or continue when I return tomorrow. Some dogs are afraid, but
walk with me because it is safer than being left behind. I judge this
based on how the dog looks behind us or tries to walk while in contact
with me.

Note: I rarely work with puppies (because visitors always pay attention
to them) unless they are absolutely mortified. So, I never get to make
use of a puppy's willingness to follow.

No matter what you use, getting used to the leash will be a gradual
process.

Please, don't think your dog might not be "very bright". As we all know,
dogs are smarter than we think. :-) {I need to read that book.} I like
to think that just because we don't know what a dog is thinking, it
doesn't meant they aren't having very lucid, logical thoughts. I don't
expect any advanced math, but I do think they have a respectable degree
of reasoning.

Your training skills are far superior to mine. But we're not really
addressing a training issue; are we. The use of the long (usually
cotton) leads that I'm familiar with is in teaching a dog to come to
you.

Someone explained to me that walking backwards , so the dog can watch
your face, and for ease of dispensing treats, is a great training
method. Better start with a hungry doggy, right?

If, as you suspect, your dog hasn't been out much, there are many
frightening things out there. Take her to a busy place and just spend
time there. Let her hear and see people and noises. This will make her
more courageous/ less fearful--and more tolerant of the leash. If she is
afraid, the leash is what's preventing her from reaching safety. By
adjusting her perception of the "threats" out there, to the point
they're no longer threats at all, you can reduce or eliminate he need to
reach safety. At some point, when she feels safer and more confident,
her desire to please you will kick in, and progress will go even faster.

My shelter Sheltie, Laddy, might never be super courageous, but he's
making progress at an increasing rate. At first he wouldn't come near
me; now he will approach some strangers, if I'm present and he knows he
might get petted.

Please, don't give up on your doggy.



Whatever it takes.

Ronna wrote:
Why?

Because your dog will learn to listen to you with MAJOR distraction
around, which is what you want. Sure, you may be able to teach your
dog to sit and stay at home, but if she hasn't learned to be reliable
at it around other dogs, she may just forget everything she knows when
exposed to outside stimulus, especially as you say she is spooky.

Good point.

As for the Flexi.... I really hate those leashes, ESPECIALLY used on
dogs who bolt and have choke chains on. Sure fire way to injure your
dog, if not yourself. If you want to use a long line, get a soft
cotton clothesline and attach it to a harness. That way if the dog
does bolt, there is less chance of her hurting you or herself.

I decided against using a Flexi because I thought it would just enable her
bad behaviors. (And, like you, I disliked the idea of her hitting the end of
the leash over and over again on a choke collar and hurting herself.)
Despite the fact that I'd heard she went crazy at the mere sight of one, I
decided to try a Gentle Leader and a regular leash. Bingo! She adapted to it
instantly and I was actually able to take her for a brisk walk last night.
She is obviously unaccustomed to seeing the big wide world, and lots of
things startle her, but if she continues to make this kind of progress,
she'll be nearly "normal" in no time. She also met some new people and was
able to greet them without any cowering or major shyness. (I keep telling
myself not to expect this pace of improvement to continue! G)

As for excercise, does she play ball? A nice half hour of fetch is
better excercise than just wandering around on the end of a leash.

She does, but at the moment I'm leery of letting her off lead outdoors,
since I don't know whether she'll come when called. According to the papers
filled out by the person who surrendered her, she hasn't been taught to
come, and I don't see any signs of her reliably doing so. And although she
is attentive indoors, she loses it outdoors. For a while I think we'll have
to stick to brisk walks. When she was surrendered she was quite overweight,
and the forms say she wasn't walked but put outdoors to "exercise herself."
We all know what that means.

Are there any fenced in areas around? That would be another option.

Yeah, now that she seems to be coming along better than I hoped, I'm
thinking of taking her to a dog park in the nearby small city where she can
run around off lead. (I live in a semi-rural area, so fenced areas are not
common.)

Thanks for your advice.

Michael A. Ball wrote:
Please, don't think your dog might not be "very bright". As we all
know, dogs are smarter than we think. :-) {I need to read that
book.} I like to think that just because we don't know what a dog is
thinking, it doesn't meant they aren't having very lucid, logical
thoughts. I don't expect any advanced math, but I do think they have
a respectable degree of reasoning.

Oh, I agree. I think that in her case her common sense is clouded by
inexperience and fear, and she tends to react out of that to unfamiliar
stimuli. (Or even familiar stimuli, upon occasion! G ) So we can hope
that her innate brains will kick in at some point. A dog like my male, on
the other hand, has led a well-regulated existence and knows what is
expected of him, so he reacts with confidence and assesses new situations
more "rationally."


If, as you suspect, your dog hasn't been out much, there are many
frightening things out there. Take her to a busy place and just spend
time there. Let her hear and see people and noises. This will make her
more courageous/ less fearful--and more tolerant of the leash. If she
is afraid, the leash is what's preventing her from reaching safety. By
adjusting her perception of the "threats" out there, to the point
they're no longer threats at all, you can reduce or eliminate he need
to reach safety. At some point, when she feels safer and more
confident, her desire to please you will kick in, and progress will
go even faster.

My shelter Sheltie, Laddy, might never be super courageous, but he's
making progress at an increasing rate. At first he wouldn't come near
me; now he will approach some strangers, if I'm present and he knows
he might get petted.

Please, don't give up on your doggy.

Don't worry, I won't. The only thing we're really concerned about is how she
interacts with our other dog. If, worst case, we decided after a month or
two that she was making his life miserable, she would be much easier for
rescue to place because she would know how to walk on a leash, have some
basic training, have more confidence, and be able to live in a normal
household. (At the moment she is considered a difficult placement, and they
were reluctant to let her go to a home that was not experienced with dogs
and realistic with their expectations of a rescue dog. A lot of people who
want to adopt goldens expect them to be that perfect family dog right out of
the box.) So worst case we would have served as a--hopefully--useful foster
home. There is no doubt that she, like many dogs, is at her absolute worst
in a kennel situation, which would discourage many people from adopting her.
Even if I decided she wasn't suited here, I would keep her here and keep
working with her until rescue found her a permanent home. (Assuming that
was okay with them.)