"Debbie S" wrote in message
...

Afterall, they _do have yorkie, GSD,
border terrier, border collie, and this week, JRT and Aussie back-up.

Ahh, a breedpourri.

--
Tara

From:

Ahh, a breedpourri.

Yes, indeed. I wish I could post links to pictures, I have the cutest
little Border Terrier pup here, a blue male. I'm not a BT person, but
this pup could sway me. He's funny, cute, and quirky, just the way I
like 'em, and his coat hasn't gotten icky yet. His name is Mac, I'm
calling him Mackerel, Macaroon, or Macaroni.

Debbie

Looking for a buddy? Meet Sunny!
http://community.webtv.net/staffymom/Adoptme

On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 19:24:42 -0700, (Debbie S) wrote:

...Well, sure, if they come out of the whelping box that way. I've seen a
few.

...Sure, man-made. 'Repair' is a good term to use, because I'm not sure
they ever go back to 'good as new', once warped.

Thanks for the insight. To be honest, it hadn't occurred to me that a
puppy could already be aggressive when it left the whelping box.
Logically, that does seem like the toughest variety to repair.

I agree that only the very best temperaments should be made available to
the public. When I actually worked for the shelter, and took care of
quarantined and isolated dogs, I saw a lot of dogs that would have posed
little or no problem for me, but would have been difficult or dangerous
to the average pet owner.

Regarding Pitbulls and Staffordshires, did you see Wooly's second post
on 6-4. She explained that Staffordshires are descendents of Pitbulls,
and are bred for civility and service. As Staffymom, do you consider
that a fair basic description of their development?

I'm far from alone in this, but I have trouble distinguishing between
the two breeds.

Thanks again.
Michael



When I die, I want to go where dogs go!

"Debbie S" wrote in message
...

From:

Ahh, a breedpourri.

Yes, indeed. I wish I could post links to pictures, I have the cutest
little Border Terrier pup here, a blue male. I'm not a BT person, but
this pup could sway me. He's funny, cute, and quirky, just the way I
like 'em, and his coat hasn't gotten icky yet. His name is Mac, I'm
calling him Mackerel, Macaroon, or Macaroni.

I met my first BT in April at a local PetFest. He's owned by a dog trainer
and was the *cutest* dog I'd ever laid eyes on. I've admired them via
pictures for years but never actually met one. The whole outer package is
irresistable to me and this little guy had on a pair of doggles to boot. He
was sitting like a little statue on a table, doggles on, and posing for
pictures. Everyone who passed had to ooh & ahh over him and those with
cameras started snapping away.

--
Tara

"elegy" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 22:29:46 -0400, "Luna" wrote:


"elegy" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 22:14:58 -0400, "Luna" wrote:


"diddy" wrote in message
...
in thread : "Luna"
whittled the following words:

80 lbs? What kind of pit bull weights 80 lbs?


An overweight one?

Don't they usually weight in at around 40 lbs? All the pits I've seen
are
compact and muscular but not very tall. It sounds like a messed up
hybrid to
me.

i think the ukc breed standard goes up to 60.

So what does that mean, el? Is it not really a pit bull? Pit bull mixed
with a
rottweiller or something like that?

i wouldn't say rott. i'd say american bulldog or some kind of mastiff,
because those are the usual. but then again, maybe they are just
oversized pit bulls because that's the fashion these days. i still
suspect mastiff or ambull somewhere in their lineage but maybe not.

but that they're oversized doesn't speak well of their breeding either
way you look at it, yanno? and if they don't give a crap about proper
size and body type, i'm pretty sure they don't give a crap about
proper temperament, either.

mine are 45 and 50.

Yours look very healthy. I get a bit annoyed when I see dogs that are
seriously
overweight (but I don't think an 80 lb pitbull can be *that* overweight,
do you?
It sounds more like some kind of mix to enlarge the breed).

i can't imagine either of my dogs hitting 80 pounds no matter what,
but who knows.

Every freakin' time I browse by here, hoping to find an improvement, all I
see is ignorant people talking to ignorant people. There have ALWAYS been
some large Pit Bulls. Colby's Pincher, over a hundred years ago, was 75
pounds. As time has gone on, the percentage of larger Pit Bulls has
increased. Without being overweight or a mixed breed. The UKC standard lists
60 pounds as a "desirable" maximum, but doesn't penalize larger dogs if
they're proportionate. While this increase has not been good for the breed's
health, it doesn't make large Pit Bulls "overweight" or a "mix".

See you in a year or so. I won't hold my breath for any improvement.

David

From:

Regarding Pitbulls and Staffordshires, did you see Wooly's second post
on 6-4

No. I'm not here often, tend to visit in spurts. If the thread title
doesn't interest me, I tend to look at who's posted to it, as there are
regulars I always read.

She explained that Staffordshires are descendents of Pitbulls, and are
bred for civility and service. As Staffymom, do you consider that a fair
basic description of their development?

Are you trolling me? ;-)

Hmmm, civility and service. Maybe. I do think that people that live
with their breeding stock in the house rather than keeping 40 or 50 of
them on chain rigs value a more 'civil' dog. {Not the Schutzhund
definition of civil, but the pet owner's probable definition of a 'civil
dog'.}

I have AmStaffs, and I'm one of the people that consider them a
different breed than pit bulls. Nothing was added to the AmStaff to
make it different, but the dogs are bred to a different criteria than
ADBA pit bulls. I won't go into UKC dogs, because near as I can tell,
UKC will register just about anything.

It's an interesting thing to ponder, and it gets bully people riled real
quick when you voice an opinion opposing their own, and it almost always
turns nasty, much more so than any other breed I've ever been involved
with. Makes the show/working lines GSD and BC debates look like a chat
over tea and crumpets in comparison. All I know is that I find the
AmStaffs I've dealt with different in attributes than the pit bulls I've
worked, and it just doesn't make sense to me that you could breed dogs
for 60+ years, valuing and selecting for different things, and NOT end
up with a different breed, or a _very different variety.

If you talk to the BC people, the ones that still work the dogs on
sheep/cattle, and mention sport/BYB bred dogs, they'll tell you those
dogs are NOT border collies, or they'll say that they shouldn't be
called border collies because they haven't been bred to work. {Work
=ing herd.} But if you talk to 1/2 {guesstimating here!} the pit bull
folks, they'll adamantly state that Amstaffs and APBT's are the SAME
breed. Who's right? They can't both be right, can they? Either the
dogs are the same breed when bred for different purposes, or they
aren't. All I know is in the dogs I've worked, rescued/placed, and
owned, I consider the pit bull and the AmStaff to be different breeds.
For one thing, I've only known one hot, i.e. seriously dog aggressive
AmStaff, and she's buried behind our shop. I will not tolerate a
seriously dog aggressive pit bull or AmStaff, irregardless of how much I
may love them. I think dog aggression in the breeds is a HUGE problem,
and it would behoove breeders to breed away from it. {I'm talking about
dogs that will chew through chain link, jump through windows, scream and
claw at the ground while on leash, to get at another dog. I'm NOT
talking about a dog that will fight when a fight is brought to him/her.
I'm speaking of the dogs that will stop at nothing to get into a fight.}
Now, it's probably going to be posted to boards far and wide that I said
dog aggression was bad, and should be bred away from, so we'll probably
be deluged with posts claiming I'm an idiot. Oh well. ;-) We need to
do something, NOW, or we're going to lose these dogs. The berserk dog
aggressive dogs need to be culled, and dogs of iffy temperament need to
be euth'd, IMO. Yesterday. Again, IMO, only the creampuff dogs should
be placed from shelters and rescues, there's certainly enough of them
around. The shame is that there are some really nice, fiery dogs to be
had, but the people that have the knowledge and experience to be able to
handle them usually already have more dogs than they really want. I know
of a really, really nice little pit bull {could be AmStaff, but without
AKC papers I call 'em pit bulls} in foster right now that I'd love to
own. Drivey, nice structure and temperament, cute as a button with
natural rose ears, but I have THREE green dogs right now. Because of
dogs like him {and he barks at strangers! } I find no justification good
enough to be placing seriously dog aggressive dogs. I, like some sorta
masochistic idiot, signed up for google news alerts, key word 'pit bull'
and 'German shepherd'. There are many, many dog aggression incidents
that hit the paper, and spur BSL. Dogs that are so dog aggressive they
jump through plate glass windows and kill the neighbor's dog in it's own
yard, that sort of thing. It scares people, and with good reason.
Hell, *I* don't want to live next to a dog like that! {And I'd follow
the old country rule of S S S if I did, and he made it onto my
property.} Dogs of that ilk need to be dead, if we have any chance of
keeping these dogs in the future.

I'm far from alone in this, but I have trouble distinguishing between
the two breeds.

It's not hard to distinguish between a typical AmStaff and a typical
ADBA dog. You can probably google up some pics of both, and compare.
Since UKC will register either types as APBT's, you can find a more
diverse structure/type among their ranks, and IMO those dogs shouldn't
be used as support for the claim that they're the same breed. I
consider the UKC as almost a melting pot for pit bulls and AmStaffs, but
that's just me.

I'm certainly not an expert, just someone who's lived with,
rescued/placed, owned, trained, and titled a lot of the dogs over the
past... hmm, around 13 years now. I got involved in agility because I
thought I could help the breed's reputation. Not only do I think it's
not done one whit of good, I think we're on the fast road to losing the
privilege to own them legally within the United States. It sucks, but
I'm one of the fortunate ones, as I love dogs, period. I have other
breeds I love just as much as my AmStaffs, and if I had to claim one as
My Breed, it would be the working line GSD, though I'm quite smitten
with Border Collies these days. {Melanie just read that sentence twice.}
The AmStaffs I own now may be the last ones I'm legally allowed to own,
and it's hard for me to imagine a time when we don't have a
chubby-cheeked AST around the house. Diversification is good these
days.

I won't be ready for another dog for 3 1/2, 4 years. I'd like another
AmStaff, or a very drivey {if they exist, I've just never personally
seen one} Staffybull. I'll just have to see where we're at as far as
BSL by then, because no one is taking my dog from me, and I really don't
want to euthanize a good, healthy, trained friend because the law says
I can't own it because of it's breed. How stupid is that?

Debbie

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

I guess pit bulls and AmStaffs are the "same" the way most
pet people would consider, say, Border Collies and Aussies
to be the "same."

Not here. Other than the odd exception, BCs and Aussies are so
different in coat, body type, behaviour, and stance that even
non-dog people know the difference.

AmStaffs, PBs, and even American Bulldogs and Lab crosses are a
different story. I think that coat is the first thing that
people look at, and then how the dogs hold themselves.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From:

(But you mean real Border Collies, right?) *duck*

No need to duck. Yes, actually, I do mean real Border Collies. After
working and trialing Taz, I really wanted one of my own, and was
researching sport breeders. {BREATHE, Melanie! heeheehooo heeheehoooo}
I had pretty much settled on one particular sport breeder not too far
from you now, CP, and was waiting for a certain bitch to be bred before
I sent my deposit. I really like the colored dogs, {heeheehooo} and
she's health testing.

Meanwhile, I'd been watching the OR/WA rescue site for several years,
and Dice showed up. I asked to meet her, and she was in temporary
foster in Klamath Falls, would I be willing to meet the foster 1/2 way,
and deliver her to another foster if I didn't like her? Long story
short, they were short on foster spots, we said we'd foster, and we fell
in love with her {even though she was trying to bite people walking past
us when we met!}. We couldn't imagine why anyone would dump her in a
shelter, where she suffered severe meltdown. She's a fun, funny,
energetic yet easily calmed, delightful little dog. Dice will turn
herself inside out to do what I ask of her, and she finds joy in
_everything. And did I mention that she's brilliant? This dog glows in
the dark.

Don and I had done rescue off and on for a number of years since we'd
been married, first with yorkies, then with pit bulls. Since Dice was
in danger of being put down due to submissively urinating, fear biting,
and refusing to eat in the shelter, she served as a good reminder for us
and we decided to get involved again, on a very limited basis. We just
couldn't look at her running in the yard, learning tricks, and _not
foster one dog at a time. If I've told this story before, I apologize,
but this is why we're fostering now. It's all about Dice-A-Roni, aka
See Spots Run. {There's a rescue GSD named XXX Hangman's Fury, and I
almost wish I'd asked Marisa for permission to 'steal' it for Dice,
though I think it fits a male better than a female.}

Anyway, I'd watched the site, and Jenna {then Marnie} sat, and sat, and
sat, waiting for a home. A darling little split-faced tri, very high
drive rough coat. I'll admit, I like color and flash heeheehoooo,
and I've always wanted a split-faced dog. So we decided to foster her.
After about 5 agility people {claiming to want high drive, but coming
from other breeds, mostly sporting group} backed away from her slowly,
saying "_not _that_ much_drive", Don and a good friend of mine convinced
me I loved her too much to let her go. This is the story of why Debbie
now has three green dogs, and 14 t-shirts with holes in the sleeves.
Beats the clumps of hair she was ripping out of the back of my head at
first, and she hasn't taken out a shirt in a couple of weeks. :-/
It's easy to understand why Jenna ended up in rescue, but I adore her.
Don doesn't quite understand why. Yet. I'll say " I LOVE that dog"
when she does something really quirky, or obnoxious, and he'll say "I
know you do." and shake his head in bewilderment. One day he'll see it,
I have faith in her.

During this time, I was on one of the sport BC lists that I've seen you
post on, and the CP list, and kept reading about puppy after puppy
being pumped out by that breeder, first for $800.00, now they're
$1,000.00. {I'm sorry, I'll certainly pay that for a dog with a
pedigree like Kira's, but a CP dog? $800.00 was a big stretch.} She
sometimes has a bitch bred before another litter goes home. Good Lord,
but that woman is making some serious cash. Meanwhile, we're drowning
in BCs around here, can't find fosters, and nice dogs are being lost to
the needle. I can't imagine that I'd ever purchase a BC pup, not with
the awesome dogs that are coming into rescue. Stafford has a lovely
little rescue girl, Squirtnik, and how could anyone look at these three
dogs and _not consider rescue? {well, maybe Dice and Squirtnik. Jenna
is a work in progress.} Now, if I was to get into serious herding, I
might consider a pup, but that's probably not going to happen. And
there's enough 'flash' heeheehooo coming through, on _nice dogs, that
I'll still be able to get what I want.

she probably bangs her head against walls as often as you feel like
doing.

Well, all that gets ya is a big knot on yer head. I think it's all
snowballed to the point that nothing will stop it, it has to run it's
course, and we'll probably lose the dogs in the end. 10 years ago I
believed it _would run it's course, and then another breed would become
the devil dogs, and we'd go on. I think this situation is much
different that what the Dobes, GSDs, Danes, and St. Bernards {anyone
remember that?} faced.

I guess pit bulls and AmStaffs are the "same" the way most pet people
would consider, say, Border Collies and Aussies to be the "same."

Trust me, there's plenty of people around that'll tell you I'm all wet
in considering them a different breed. Many of them have pit bulls, or
dual-registered ASTs, so I believe they have a vested interest in
declaring them The Same. Many AST people will tell you they're NOT the
same, but most won't do so publicly, due to... I guess I'd call it 'peer
pressure'.

All I know is what _my experience with the dogs tells _me.

Debbie

(Debbie S) writes:

Stafford has a lovely little rescue girl, Squirtnik, and how could
anyone look at these three dogs and _not consider rescue? {well,
maybe Dice and Squirtnik. Jenna is a work in progress.}

Awe, shucks. ;-)

Of course, while Jenna may be a work in progress, she is a seriously
lovely little elf-dog.

Now, if I was to get into serious herding, I might consider a pup,
but that's probably not going to happen. And there's enough 'flash'
heeheehooo coming through, on _nice dogs, that I'll still be able
to get what I want.

I understand that it's pretty difficult to judge herding ability in
any given unstarted pup.

I have a friend with a BC from CP (Debbie - you met her & her dog at
that fun match). He is going to be (and really already is) a pretty
awesome agility & flyball dog. Very, very pretty dog as well.

He's also probably not going to be much of a herding dog. Suprised?

I like the second chance dogs, the diamonds in the rough, and am more
impressed and excited by the sucesses people have with them.
--
Stafford A. Rau
raudog @ rauhaus.org

From:

she is a seriously lovely little elf-dog.

Elfin? Gremlin, maybe.

I understand that it's pretty difficult to judge herding ability in any
given unstarted pup.

Certainly, but you can stack the deck. Or go with a rescue with good
instinct. I doubt I'll be buying BC pups anytime soon, if ever. If I
wanted to trial, I'd probably buy a started dog, but that's probably not
going to happen. Notice I didn't say 'never'.

Very, very pretty dog as well.

I watched him at our last trial. While he's a nice dog, I'm not seeing
anything out of him that I think makes those dogs worth the asking
price. And this particular dog I liked more as a pup than I do now.
He's huge, and I like the smaller dogs. To me, he really stood out at
the trial, and not due to his color. shrug

He's also probably not going to be much of a herding dog. Suprised?

Not at all, instinct tests are being used to partially justify some of
the breedings.

Debbie