From: (elegy)

you can't take a border collie into the show ring and title it as a bc
and as an aussie, though. you can take a dog into the ring and
conformation title it as an akc amstaff and a ukc apbt, though. and
people do.

Not in AKC, unless they're hanging papers. Just because UKC chooses to
register AKC ASTs as pit bulls doesn't mean they're the same breed, {And
indeed, if their policys were as strict as AKC's, they wouldn't be
registering AST's} it may only mean they're close enough that they want
the $ from those registrations and entry fees. I don't know much about
ADBA, except for their reputation for out of control dogs {I've walked
through one 'show', and that was enough for me, what a spectacle},
glorifying 'dogmen', and hung papers.

If you truly believe that AKC AmStaffs and ADBA pit bulls are the same
breed, then please explain how a group of people can breed for different
purposes for almost *70* years, and end up with the same dogs. {Yes, I
know the stud books were opened for a brief time in the '70's allowing
some 'new' blood in, still, even that was 30 years ago.} The Border
Collie people, just as knowlegeable as dog fanciers, believe that if you
quit selecting for herding ability, you've created a different dog
within a couple of generations. Who's right? If APBT's and ASTs are
the same, why do ahem 'dogmen' refer to staffs as 'curs', and wouldn't
feed one? Why do many UKC people keep their 'pitterstaff' and red nosed
lines completely separate, never crossing them? They'll outcross to
other pitterstaffs, or other red nosed dogs, why not cross the two if
they're truly the same?

If the defining quality of a pit bull is it's 'gameness', and 'dogmen'
wouldn't feed a staff, or breed to one, because they're 'curs', bragging
on their pedigrees being free of AST blood, how are they not a separate
breed? If they look different, and act different, and have different
drives, how can they be the same breed? Because they're muscular and
have short stiff hair? Because umpteen generations ago they started
from the same genepool?

Yanno, I used to read a lot of pit boards, and read the arguments over,
and over, and over, and the arguments for the dogs being the same breed
just don't make any sense. If you change _that _many_ things about a
breed, I just don't believe you end up with the same dog in the end, but
something different.

I've met lovely pit bulls, and many lovely ASTs, and I believe they're
different dogs.

Debbie

From:

How do sport breeders justify that price?

Yanno, I think people just catch 'the fever', both for the sport and
breeds that excel at it, and it blossoms from there. And there's enough
people that want flash and chrome hangs head that they'll pay it for
sport bred dogs. Agility also seems to attract more people with money
than obedience does. Is there much money around sheepdog trials?

What exactly are you getting for all that money?

The name, in this case, since some have done well at USDAA and {I
think!} AKC Nationals. I think it's the same thought process as "I need
a BC to win", taken a little further. There's a woman in our area that
has done well with a couple of border collies off a farm in Idaho, and
now there's several people that have dogs from the same farm.

And their foundation stock are often nondistinguished, to say the
least.

I know zipzilchnada about BC bloodlines. I read McCaig's books, does
that count?

Have you ever lurked on the Lockeye list?

No, I'm on the CP list {no mail}, and agileBC, though I may be tossed
off the former after this! I know Karen has at least one of Michelle's
dogs for breeding stock, a bitch.

But selling puppy after puppy to sport homes.

'Lockeye' is pretty much a dirty word around here, at least with the
agility people I talk with regarding BC's.

My understanding is that on the west coast (not there yet -- not moving
until end of July) it is more common to get rescue dogs that are partly
trained or have good instinct.

I know one of the people I work with {take that phrase loosely, please,
I say I have room, she meets me with a dog, and sometimes we trade dogs
when the other person is the more appropriate foster} says she gets in
lots of nice working dogs, and makes definite distinctions between those
she feels have trial potential, and the working farm dogs. She said she
felt that Jenna would work a farm fine, but wouldn't make a trial dog
without a lot of work, and probably wouldn't go far even after the work
was put into her. I still may take her for a few lessons, just for
grins. I'm enjoying this new path.

In the northeast it seems more common to end up with Amish mill dogs

Are there many BC's in pet stores back east? I have no idea around
here, I don't go into 'pet stores', though the local animal supply
frequently has mixed breed pups 'in stock'. He says he just takes in
'oops' litters to help out customers. I suggested he do so only if they
make arrangements to spay the bitch, and he looked at me like I'd
sprouted another head.

Because "why should they settle for trash dogs when they can buy nice
puppies?" (Yes, someone said that to me once.) "Don't they have a right
to a nice puppy?" "Because rescue dogs all have isssues, don't you
understand?"

Were you still on agileBC when I went off on that woman who said
practically the same thing? One of the many times when I should have
waited an hour or so before I hit 'send'. I'm surprised the Queen
didn't dump me, she removed Kay when she posted her plea for rescue
help.

and I specifically asked for a red bitch.

Now, _that surprises me, as the two main rescue people here have both
told me they shudder when they hear a dog in need is a red bitch. They
said, IIRC, that they'd _never had a normal red bitch come through,
they're all warped. {This is why Sunny is with me} I really _must get
these dogs swabbed, because for two long time, experienced rescue
people to say this, and for you to _want a red bitch, makes me think
there's something genetic going on here in Orygun. Interesting, eh?
I don't have a problem with flash, I even like merles personally, I
just don't agree with breeding for it.

I've always wanted a merle _something, I just love the color. I'm
especially fond of the lighter ones, with lots of white. One came into
rescue just before I spotted Dice, but he'd had a broken leg...
something that made me pass on him. He was stunning.

To me, "breed" implies both common ancestry and selection for common
characteristics such that the offpsring are predictable in traits
essential to breed type.

I think that's pretty much where I'm coming from.

Anyway, I hope we get to compare notes face to face when I get out to
the west coast.

How cool would that be? Maybe Jenna could christen a t-shirt for you.
There's a few sheepdog trials held within a 20 minute drive of my house.

Debbie

"Luna" :

overweight one?

Don't they usually weight in at around 40 lbs?

Not around here, they don't. Pits are a dime a dozen in the Baltimore
area, and I'd say 2/3 of the ones I see are in the 50-70 lb range.

(Debbie S) writes:


From:

Anyway, I hope we get to compare notes face to face when I get out to
the west coast.

How cool would that be? Maybe Jenna could christen a t-shirt for you.
There's a few sheepdog trials held within a 20 minute drive of my house.

Yeah yeah! Me too!

Here are some brand new pretty good pictures of one of the cutest
little border collies, whom you could have the opportunity of meeting:

http://www.rauhaus.org/gallery/Goof-Off-Time/
--
Stafford A. Rau
raudog @ rauhaus.org

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

They're terribly different here as well, but no one knows
the difference. And frankly, from the average pet home
point of view, there is very little difference because the
differences that exist are not relevant to most pet owners.

I guess that since BCs are so common here, APO knows that an
Aussie is not a BC. They might not know what an Aussie is, but
it's not a BC. Big Rocky gets Berner once in a while.

I've never seen a Barbie Collie in real life - we have plenty of
large BCs, but the ones I know still have The Look.

Almost everyone in the street assumes Solo is an Aussie
because of his color, and he looks nothing like your
average Aussie.

At a trial this past weekend, a couple of CKC folks told me
unequivocally that any BC that wasn't B&W wasn't a real[1] BC,
that there was something else in there. "Nuh uh," I said, and
then after reflection, "So what if there is?" How far back do
we have to go before we decide a gene pool has been "dirtied"?
Aren't Bearded Collies crossed into UK BCs every once in a
while?

He's hairy, but not anywhere near Aussie
hairy, and skulks along like a secret agent -- not to
mention the luxuriant tail!

To me, the difference is all in the attitude. I don't need to
see a tail (or lack thereof).

[1] They reserved the word "purebred" for CKC recognised dogs.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From:

Here are some brand new pretty good pictures

Really good, I'd say!

Debbie

On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 21:46:29 -0400, "Sionnach" ,
wrote:


Not around here, they don't. Pits are a dime a dozen in the Baltimore
area, and I'd say 2/3 of the ones I see are in the 50-70 lb range.

Yup. Big dogs. OTOH, we do get some nice trim little bitches in
pretty often. The boys are generally huge though.

--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfr...bedience/album

"Stafford A. Rau" wrote in
:

Here are some brand new pretty good pictures of one of the cutest
little border collies, whom you could have the opportunity of meeting:

http://www.rauhaus.org/gallery/Goof-Off-Time/


Awwww, she's pretty -- and looks full of fun!

--
Catherine
& Zoe the cockerchow
& Queenie the black gold retriever
& Rosalie the calico

From:

If you become really successful and well known, and you're a good
teacher, you can make some decent money giving lessons

I was wondering {and wasn't clear} about the competitors. When I first
started in agility, there were very few large, expensive motorhomes at
trials. Now there are quite a few of them, but mostly at AKC trials. I
suspect teevee coverage has something to do with it.

I had an identical run-in on BC-L once, probably with the same person.
I also wasn't very nice.

I read her nasty remark about rescues after coming in from working Dice
and Jenna. Not good timing.

There may very well be something to the "crazy red dog" stereotype.
It's common across breeds. It's something I want to look at in my new
job.

I need to get Stevie swabbed, he is a really solid little red dog. Shy
in the shelter, he really blossomed in the short time he was here. I
walked him around an agility trial the day I traded him with Kay for
Sunny, and he was pretty funny. A few people gave him treats, and we
watched runs for awhile. He looked up at me once as if to say "Yeah,
your people are my people. When do we start?" And he was still
available, last time I looked.

Then the likelihood that we will meet is almost a certainty!

I look forward to it!

Debbie