A friend of mine has a female APBT mix, about three years old. She got
Cassie from the previous owner, who apparently would be beaten up by her
boyfriend and that would make the dogs start fighting. Anyway... she's
a very sweet dog, except for one major problem.

Every once in a great while, she exhibits extreme aggression towards
other dogs. Just today, I had her at the dog park. I think she was a
little nervous (she was foaming a little bit), but was fine for over an
hour. She saw another APBT, trotted up, and started sniffing. Both
dogs quickly got to standing very, very still, and the other dogs owner
was calling his dog, and I was calling Cassie. They just stood there,
kinda side-to-side, and all of a sudden Cassie went for the other dog.
She would not let go of that dogs ear for anything... I jumped on top
and had my legs scissored around between the two, was yelling at Cass to
let go, and I even socked her in the side. The other dogs owner had to
kick her a couple of times to get her loose.

I know that dogs sometimes need to "work things out". But she doesn't
have any intermediate stages... she goes for ears! My friend told me
this happened once before, with a Boxer twice her size that she actually
gets along with very well. It was over a treat, and the same thing...
she locked on to the Boxers ear and it took two people to pry her off.
My friend says Cassies eyes went red, too... :-)

Does anyone have any ideas other than to just never have her around
other dogs? I want that to be a last resort.

--
* John Oliver http://www.john-oliver.net/ *
* California gun owners - protect your rights and join the CRPA today! *
* http://www.crpa.org/ *
* San Diego shooters come to http://shooting.forsandiego.com/ *

On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 21:36:11 -0400, elegy wrote:
pit bulls and pit mixes don't belong in dog parks, period. this is a
breed that has been bred for generations to be aggressive toward other
dogs. it's just part of what they are.

I understand a bit of the history of pit bulls. But I don't believe
that the answer is to segregate them... if they have no contact with
other dogs, how do they get to be accustomed enough to having other dogs
around so as to *not* attack? If pit bulls become the dogs that "must
be kept seperated from other dogs, because they're just too dangerous",
then that would justify breed-based bans, in the minds of the
I-hate-pit-bull people.

--
* John Oliver http://www.john-oliver.net/ *
* California gun owners - protect your rights and join the CRPA today! *
* http://www.crpa.org/ *
* San Diego shooters come to http://shooting.forsandiego.com/ *

On 3 Jul 2005 19:43:17 -0700, wrote:
HOWEDY John,

You're new here abHOWETS. It's "anyHOWE."

Ooooo... kaaaayyyy...

Dogs DO NOT HAVE behavior problems.

ALL temperament and behavior problems are
CAUSED BY MISHANDLING. HOWER DOG LOVERS
like to BLAME THE DOG on accHOWENT of they
ain't got the intellect to HOWEtwit the
cunning of the domestic puppy dog {); ~ )

Every once in a great while, she exhibits
extreme aggression towards other dogs.

ALL AGGRESSION IS FEAR.

ALL FEAR IS CAUSED BY MISHANDLING.

So dogs never felt fear until they were domesticated?

I do absolutely agree that training and handling is critically
important. I was kinda hoping for some insight into what can be done to
correct this issue. I've nagged my friend about contacting a trainer,
but any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.

--
* John Oliver http://www.john-oliver.net/ *
* California gun owners - protect your rights and join the CRPA today! *
* http://www.crpa.org/ *
* San Diego shooters come to http://shooting.forsandiego.com/ *

On 04 Jul 2005 03:38:31 GMT John Oliver whittled these words:

I understand a bit of the history of pit bulls. But I don't believe
that the answer is to segregate them... if they have no contact with
other dogs, how do they get to be accustomed enough to having other dogs
around so as to *not* attack?

A dog park is a bad idea for many adult dogs. Dogs are pack animals, not
free socializers. That means that they are normal if they don't embrace a
stranger in their midst. It is common and normal for an adult dog that
once did well at a dog park to do less well as it approaches maturity -
e.g. at about 18 months plus or minus 6 months. So if it is a bad idea
for dogs not specifically bred for dog aggression it is doubly bad for
dogs that are. The answer is obedience training.

A put bull or any of the other typically dog aggressive breeds can be
controlled by obdeince training and good management.

If pit bulls become the dogs that "must
be kept seperated from other dogs, because they're just too dangerous",
then that would justify breed-based bans, in the minds of the
I-hate-pit-bull people.

Pit Bulls were created to be dog aggessive. That makes them a risk to
other dogs IF they are uncontrolled and untrained. The same is true of a
multitude of dogs. Dog aggression does not equate with people aggression.

Socialization, which is the process people are trying to achieve when
going to a dog park, has to do with familiarizing the dog with other dog
behavior, social rules etc. It deals with fear based aggression very
well. But the pit bull fight response isn't fear based. Why do people
box? Why do they engage in full contact matial arts? Are they angry with
each other? Are they afraid? Are they generally unfriendly and dangerous
people? Just as humans can learn the rules about appropriate and
inappopriate behavior so can dogs. BUT you can't MAKE a dog like to play
with another dog. It is STILL a dog. So go to obedience class. Learn to
teach your dog how to acquire self control, then use good management to
keep your dog out of trouble.

Do not expect to teach your dog to play safely with other dogs. Human
aggression is outside the scope of the original breeding of the pit bull
and simply is not acceptable at any level.

--
Diane Blackman
http://dog-play.com/
http://dogplay.com/Shop/dogplayshop.htm

"John Oliver" wrote in message
.. .

I understand a bit of the history of pit bulls. But I don't believe
that the answer is to segregate them... if they have no contact with
other dogs, how do they get to be accustomed enough to having other dogs
around so as to *not* attack? If pit bulls become the dogs that "must
be kept seperated from other dogs, because they're just too dangerous",
then that would justify breed-based bans, in the minds of the
I-hate-pit-bull people.

You may not believe it, but you need to face it. Many pit bulls CAN'T and
WON'T be sweet and friendly with other dogs. Period. It's simply the
nature of the breed.

Certain breeds have certain behaviors. Aussies will try to herd. Labradors
retrieve. Beagles follow scents and dig. Many purebred dogs will exhibit
these behaviors even if they aren't trained for them.

Pit bulls were bred to fight other dogs. There are pit bulls that are sweet
and sociable with other dogs, but it's best to assume that yours won't be.

Remember, you've got a dog, there - not a child.

flick 100785

John Oliver wrote:
On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 21:36:11 -0400, elegy wrote:
pit bulls and pit mixes don't belong in dog parks, period. this is a
breed that has been bred for generations to be aggressive toward
other dogs. it's just part of what they are.

I understand a bit of the history of pit bulls. But I don't believe
that the answer is to segregate them... if they have no contact with
other dogs, how do they get to be accustomed enough to having other
dogs around so as to *not* attack? If pit bulls become the dogs that
"must be kept seperated from other dogs, because they're just too
dangerous", then that would justify breed-based bans, in the minds of
the I-hate-pit-bull people.

Are you willing to sacrifice the safety of other people's dogs in order to
prove your point?

I used to have a German Shepherd that adored all people--none of the normal
reserve--but with dogs he would always do the dominance routine once he
reached maturity, despite the fact that he was taken to obedience classes
starting in puppyhood. There is NO WAY I would ever have taken him to a dog
park, and I NEVER let him off lead in our local several-hundred-acre open
space area where most people take off-lead walks with their dogs.

And this dog had never actually gotten into a full-blown fight--just a
scuffle, in which he, ironically, was the one bitten.

Maybe you think I was being hypersensitive or excessively careful. But I
would never put him in a situation where he was at risk of getting into a
fight, because I had evidence to show me that he would probably not stand
down in a confrontation.

When even advocates for the APBT tell you that they don't belong in dog
parks, maybe you should believe it. And get your friend to take the dog to
obedience classes.

I was kinda hoping for some insight

You were given very good insight, including advice from two people who OWN
Pit Bull Terriers and are very experienced with the breed; they have also
given you links to web sites which contain excellent information and
insight.

It's very simple, as others have already told you:

Pit Bull Terriers were bred to fight and sometimes kill other dogs. They
combine dog-dog agression with prey drive in which other dogs are seen as
prey, and those who retain those combined instincts - as Cassie obviously
does, from your description of her behaviour - should NEVER, IMO, be
off-leash around other people's dogs except in controlled situation such as
agility and obedience competions (e.g. where the dog is only off-leash while
actively working with the handler).

I have been exercising my dogs at a large park for more than 15 years,
have seen something like 150 Pits come and go, and in all those years have
seen less than 10 of them who never fought with other dogs.
The vast majority of them have played with other dogs as puppies, but
between 5-8 months have started displaying aggression, and by the time they
are 14-24 months their owners have had to stop bringing them because they
are getting into fights of escalating severity.

This is not, btw, a phenomenon limited to Pit Bulls, but they are the only
breed in which I've seen it so universally displayed AND so unversally badly
handled by the owners.

Of the ones who didn't fight, one was never let him off leash; two - one
male, one female- played with each other, and their owner kept them away
from other dogs for the most part and watched them like a hawk, calling them
away the moment they did more than casually sniff and keep moving.
The others have been OK off-leash because their owners kept them occupied
with games of fetch, etc., and like the pair mentioned above, kept them from
interacting with dogs of the same sex more than briefly.
IOW, those dogs come to the park to get exercise, not to interact with
other dogs.


Let me give you an analogy:

I've been training dogs for 34 years, and currently own three. My youngest
weighs 14 lbs, and I have owned her since she was 13 weeks old. She is an
extremely well-trained and well-socialized dog, with multiple agility titles
and a sizeable trick repertoire. She loves small children, can go to work
with me and behave well all day, gets on well with most other dogs, etc.
etc.

She is ALSO a Jack Russell, bred to track, harass, drive, and hold at bay
large animals such as fox, raccoon, and badger, and to track and KILL small
prey animals such as mice, rats, rabbits, and squirrels - and she retains
those instincts in full measure.
She made her first kill (a field mouse) at 5 months, has killed many other
rodents including large squirrels, and has tracked and held at bay a raccoon
twice her size.
It is NORMAL for her to do this; it is what she was born and bred to do.
Despite all her training, I would NEVER, under any circumstances, have her
off leash in proximity to someone else's small animal pets, nor would I
leave her unattended in the vicinity of caged small animals.
And even though she has been raised with cats, teases but doesn't attempt
to harm the semi-feral farm cats, and is best buddies with my Siamese, I
would never leave her unattended with cats.


Your "friend" letting your Pit Bull - who has clearly demonstrated that she
retains the breed's normal fighting/prey drive towards other dogs, and has a
HISTORY of fighting - off-leash at a dog park is directly analagous to the
folly I would be committing if I took my Jack Russell to a small-animal show
and let her off-leash.

into what can be done to
correct this issue.

My JRT will come away from hunting, and allow me to remove prey from her
mouth, because she has been trained since babyhood that I am the leader of
the pack, AND that when it is appropriate, she will be allowed to hunt.
I can call her off of prey IF I percieve her intent, and stop her before
she starts; once she is "locked on", she may not even be aware of me.
I cannot remove or "correct" the instincts and drives that are normal to
her; I can only channel them, and ensure that I don't put her in situations
where tragedy could occur.


The plain fact of the matter is that dog-dog aggression of the sort that
Cassie displays is a natural and normal instinct for her breed. It is as
natural and normal for her to challenge and fight with other dogs as it is
for my Jack Russell to hunt and kill rodents.
It *cannot* be "corrected", because it is an integral, natural, and normal
part of the dog's makeup. It can be controlled to some extent with
training, but it cannot be "corrected" or removed.



In Cassie's case, since she is an adult who has already been allowed to
fight, you owe it to her, to her breed, and ESPECIALLY to the owners of
other dogs to take responsibility for what she is.
That means not letting her off-leash around other people's dogs, and
recognizing that some dogs simply aren't suited for playing with other dogs
except those they live with.


As regards actually breaking up fights once her owner is idiotic enough to
put her in a situation where she can get in one, you need a breaking stick.

"John Oliver" wrote in message
.. .

I do absolutely agree that training and handling is critically
important. I was kinda hoping for some insight into what can be done to
correct this issue.

She's a Pit Bull who has displayed dog aggression. There is no correcting
it as its part of her makeup. Its not bad manners or unsocialization that
is attributed to Pit Bull dog aggression. Since you can't undo the genetics
you have to manage the consequences of them.

I've nagged my friend about contacting a trainer,
but any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.

Never, ever, let this dog off-leash in an uncontrolled environment and/or
where there are other animals. There's nothing more infuriating than
hearing of a Pit Bull attack when said dog was intentionally allowed
off-leash by its owner. Its like leaving a loaded gun, safety off, in a
child's room.

If I had my dogs out in public (and mine are always on-leash) and a Pit Bull
or any other dog known to have either previously displayed dog aggression or
one whose breed alone calls for dog aggression came and attacked one of my
dogs the owner had better hope he can pay when I sue.

I'm not a sue-happy person and generally disagree with the practice as its
widely abused but I'll be damned if someone will be so inconsiderate as to
allow their animal the freedom to attack one of mine without consequences.
If my dog should have to suffer an attack then so should the handler who
allowed the attack to happen in the first place. Keep in mind too that its
not only the owner of the dog who is at fault but the dog itself is subject
to confiscation and euthanasia should the police or animal control become
involved. Its too high a risk to take IMO.


--
Tara

Sionnach,
Very well written.....clearly a good understanding of dogs personalities,
some of which can be controlled, some not. And at what point, the behavior
is on a course that can't be diverted.
Perry

"Sionnach" wrote in message
...

I was kinda hoping for some insight

You were given very good insight, including advice from two people who
OWN
Pit Bull Terriers and are very experienced with the breed; they have also
given you links to web sites which contain excellent information and
insight.

It's very simple, as others have already told you:

Pit Bull Terriers were bred to fight and sometimes kill other dogs. They
combine dog-dog agression with prey drive in which other dogs are seen as
prey, and those who retain those combined instincts - as Cassie obviously
does, from your description of her behaviour - should NEVER, IMO, be
off-leash around other people's dogs except in controlled situation such
as
agility and obedience competions (e.g. where the dog is only off-leash
while
actively working with the handler).

I have been exercising my dogs at a large park for more than 15 years,
have seen something like 150 Pits come and go, and in all those years have
seen less than 10 of them who never fought with other dogs.
The vast majority of them have played with other dogs as puppies, but
between 5-8 months have started displaying aggression, and by the time
they
are 14-24 months their owners have had to stop bringing them because they
are getting into fights of escalating severity.

This is not, btw, a phenomenon limited to Pit Bulls, but they are the
only
breed in which I've seen it so universally displayed AND so unversally
badly
handled by the owners.

Of the ones who didn't fight, one was never let him off leash; two - one
male, one female- played with each other, and their owner kept them away
from other dogs for the most part and watched them like a hawk, calling
them
away the moment they did more than casually sniff and keep moving.
The others have been OK off-leash because their owners kept them occupied
with games of fetch, etc., and like the pair mentioned above, kept them
from
interacting with dogs of the same sex more than briefly.
IOW, those dogs come to the park to get exercise, not to interact with
other dogs.


Let me give you an analogy:

I've been training dogs for 34 years, and currently own three. My youngest
weighs 14 lbs, and I have owned her since she was 13 weeks old. She is an
extremely well-trained and well-socialized dog, with multiple agility
titles
and a sizeable trick repertoire. She loves small children, can go to work
with me and behave well all day, gets on well with most other dogs, etc.
etc.

She is ALSO a Jack Russell, bred to track, harass, drive, and hold at bay
large animals such as fox, raccoon, and badger, and to track and KILL
small
prey animals such as mice, rats, rabbits, and squirrels - and she retains
those instincts in full measure.
She made her first kill (a field mouse) at 5 months, has killed many
other
rodents including large squirrels, and has tracked and held at bay a
raccoon
twice her size.
It is NORMAL for her to do this; it is what she was born and bred to do.
Despite all her training, I would NEVER, under any circumstances, have
her
off leash in proximity to someone else's small animal pets, nor would I
leave her unattended in the vicinity of caged small animals.
And even though she has been raised with cats, teases but doesn't attempt
to harm the semi-feral farm cats, and is best buddies with my Siamese, I
would never leave her unattended with cats.


Your "friend" letting your Pit Bull - who has clearly demonstrated that
she
retains the breed's normal fighting/prey drive towards other dogs, and has
a
HISTORY of fighting - off-leash at a dog park is directly analagous to the
folly I would be committing if I took my Jack Russell to a small-animal
show
and let her off-leash.

into what can be done to
correct this issue.

My JRT will come away from hunting, and allow me to remove prey from her
mouth, because she has been trained since babyhood that I am the leader of
the pack, AND that when it is appropriate, she will be allowed to hunt.
I can call her off of prey IF I percieve her intent, and stop her before
she starts; once she is "locked on", she may not even be aware of me.
I cannot remove or "correct" the instincts and drives that are normal to
her; I can only channel them, and ensure that I don't put her in
situations
where tragedy could occur.


The plain fact of the matter is that dog-dog aggression of the sort that
Cassie displays is a natural and normal instinct for her breed. It is as
natural and normal for her to challenge and fight with other dogs as it is
for my Jack Russell to hunt and kill rodents.
It *cannot* be "corrected", because it is an integral, natural, and normal
part of the dog's makeup. It can be controlled to some extent with
training, but it cannot be "corrected" or removed.



In Cassie's case, since she is an adult who has already been allowed to
fight, you owe it to her, to her breed, and ESPECIALLY to the owners of
other dogs to take responsibility for what she is.
That means not letting her off-leash around other people's dogs, and
recognizing that some dogs simply aren't suited for playing with other
dogs
except those they live with.


As regards actually breaking up fights once her owner is idiotic enough
to
put her in a situation where she can get in one, you need a breaking
stick.

"John Oliver" wrote in message
.. .


I understand a bit of the history of pit bulls. But I don't believe
that the answer is to segregate them... if they have no contact with
other dogs, how do they get to be accustomed enough to having other dogs
around so as to *not* attack?

Frankly, they don't. If you and your friend want to be responsible
owners/handlers of this dog, you need to stop putting other dogs at risk by
using them as experiments.

If pit bulls become the dogs that "must
be kept seperated from other dogs, because they're just too dangerous",
then that would justify breed-based bans, in the minds of the
I-hate-pit-bull people.

Breed based bans are never justified, but intelligent handling of dogs
always is, and taking a dog aggressive dog of ANY breed to an off leash park
is absolutely beyond comprehension. I am not a pit bull hater by any stretch
of the imagination, by the way.

Christy