....former raw feeders, folks who've investigated raw, etc.

I swear, I'm not trying to stir up trouble. If I were, I would've
posted this in .health. Anyhoo, the whole raw/kibble thing is a popular
point of debate on one of the other forums I visit, and a frequent
contributor is quite RAW! RAW! RAW! about it. He makes it sound very
easy; as easy as tossing your dog a variety of RMBs, which is most
definitely NOT how I remember it back when I did my research (his
write-up on the basics is he http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm)

So, could you tell me

1. Do you believe dogs to be carnivores or omnivores

2. Why you chose raw over kibble?

3. How much studying did you do (and the sources used, if you remember)
before you switched?

4. I realize there is no such thing as a 'recipe' for doing this right,
but what do you think are the most important things a raw feeder ought
to know?

5. Does anyone feed only meat (recreational bones, RMBs, organ meat,
fish etc.) with no supplementation, no veggies, etc. Whether you do or
not, why/why not?

That'll do for starters, I guess. I am starting with the premise that
everyone is doing what they feel is the best for their beasts.

One of the reasons I asked is that I have been mixing things up for the
dogs for a while now, giving them recreational bones occasionally. Over
time, Khan has become increasingly intolerant - it used to be that he
was fine if I didn't give him raw on consecutive days, then it went to
no more than twice a week, and currently, not at all. What happens can
best be described as explosive diarrhea, with emphasis on the explosive.
I like that both dogs like it so much and obviously enjoys it, and it
is a good treat for them, but the whole getting up every 1.5-2 hours for
2 days straight is just not working out.

Suja

Suja wrote:

....former raw feeders, folks who've investigated raw, etc.

I'm a former raw feeder. I lost my inexpensive source of RMBs and Wojo
got too finicky about what RMBs he would eat.


I swear, I'm not trying to stir up trouble. If I were, I would've
posted this in .health. Anyhoo, the whole raw/kibble thing is a
popular
point of debate on one of the other forums I visit, and a frequent
contributor is quite RAW! RAW! RAW! about it. He makes it sound very
easy; as easy as tossing your dog a variety of RMBs, which is most
definitely NOT how I remember it back when I did my research (his
write-up on the basics is he
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm)

Looked at that link and hope that nobody is feeding according to his
information.


So, could you tell me


1. Do you believe dogs to be carnivores or omnivores

Omnivores. Dogs can exist on a vegetarian diet, if it is carefully
balanced. Cats can not.


2. Why you chose raw over kibble?

Raw helped coat, ear and tooth problems my wire fox terrier was having.
I also liked the fact that it eliminated anal gland problems.


3. How much studying did you do (and the sources used, if you
remember)
before you switched?

I read several books. I based my raw feeding on Billinghurst. I also
read Pitcairn and someone, Pat McKay, maybe that I thought were a bit
"out there."


4. I realize there is no such thing as a 'recipe' for doing this
right,
but what do you think are the most important things a raw feeder ought
to know?

Raw is not the best for all dogs. And if you aren't comfortable
feeding this way, DON'T!



5. Does anyone feed only meat (recreational bones, RMBs, organ meat,
fish etc.) with no supplementation, no veggies, etc. Whether you do or

not, why/why not?

When I was feeding raw I had a recipe that I got from a Billinghurst
seminar. It was a mix of crushed veggies, organ meat, eggs and I can't
remember what else. I also added yogurt and B vitamins.
The whys behind that is that dogs in prekibble days ate all sorts of
human leftovers as well as small prey animals. And the guts of the
prey animals were often the parts eaten first.

Beth

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:04:52 -0400, Suja ,
clicked their heels and said:


1. Do you believe dogs to be carnivores or omnivores

omnivores

2. Why you chose raw over kibble?

because Lucy doesn't seem to handle carbs all that well. I have been
incredibly pleased with muscle tone and weight since going Raw. I
don't do total raw anymore though - I use Innova Evo for one meal for
Lucy and both meals (along with raw for one) for Franklin.

3. How much studying did you do (and the sources used, if you remember)
before you switched?

I've had a Pitcairn book for eons, and have always been intrigued
about the idea of balanced and homemade diets for the dogs. I've
supplemented kibble with yogurt, veggies, etc for years, particularly
after 1st dog w/cancer diagnosis in 1998. I realized that I need
pre-made raw - I'm no ambitious enough to do balanced myself, and Lucy
is a gulper - I won't risk whole chicken pieces.

4. I realize there is no such thing as a 'recipe' for doing this right,
but what do you think are the most important things a raw feeder ought
to know?

That proper food handling is a must.

5. Does anyone feed only meat (recreational bones, RMBs, organ meat,
fish etc.) with no supplementation, no veggies, etc. Whether you do or
not, why/why not?

Rarely. I think dogs enjoy and benefit from other foods.

--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfr...bedience/album

bethgsd wrote:

I'm a former raw feeder. I lost my inexpensive source of RMBs and Wojo
got too finicky about what RMBs he would eat.

There are people who swear up and down that feeding raw is cheaper than
feeding kibble, and if you look hard enough you'll find a cheap source.
Not in these parts, and I've looked.

Looked at that link and hope that nobody is feeding according to his
information.

He is. As are a whole bunch of newbies. The scary thing is that he
tells them that it is easy and cheap, and doesn't normally mention
anything about them doing extensive reading and research before starting.

Omnivores. Dogs can exist on a vegetarian diet, if it is carefully
balanced. Cats can not.

That's one difference I've seen between the 'Raw as religion' types and
the sensible ones. Dogs aren't obligate carnivores, but apparently they
should be, since they actually are classified under Carnivora.

When I was feeding raw I had a recipe that I got from a Billinghurst
seminar. It was a mix of crushed veggies, organ meat, eggs and I can't
remember what else. I also added yogurt and B vitamins.
The whys behind that is that dogs in prekibble days ate all sorts of
human leftovers as well as small prey animals. And the guts of the
prey animals were often the parts eaten first.

Well, there is some dispute about that now, I think. What I found
endlessly fascinating is when someone who feeds Prey Model posted
pictures of her dogs going at a whole pig. Very cool.

Suja

Suja wrote:
bethgsd wrote:



Omnivores. Dogs can exist on a vegetarian diet, if it is carefully
balanced. Cats can not.


That's one difference I've seen between the 'Raw as religion' types
and the sensible ones. Dogs aren't obligate carnivores, but
apparently they should be, since they actually are classified under
Carnivora.

There was recently a fascinating thing on NPR about cats and being pure
carnivores. Apparently cats, somewhere along the line in their
development, lost the gene to be able to taste sweet things on their
tongues. They do not taste sweet. One speculation is that this loss of
the ability to taste sweet actually caused them to become pure carnivores.

Dogs can taste sweet. Also, what many people who push the "meat only"
raw diets for dogs forget is that for millinnea dogs have existed as
adjuncts to man. Feral dog populations, then and now, lived off the
castoffs from the human table. And not too many whole pigs were cast
off. Instead, feral dog populations have generally existed off of a
series of grains and vegetables, with an occasional goat bone or
something thrown in. So yeah, wolves may not eat much vegetable matter,
but wolves and dogs diverged long ago.

I don't feed raw. I've known of two dogs that have died directly as a
result of a raw diet. One choked to death on a turkey neck, another died
of gastroenteritis. And I know of a third dog, a puppy, fed only meat
who at 9 months looked like a 4-month-old, and whose bones were
literally bendable. Way too many people jump into raw feeding without
the merest clue of what they're doing. It's scary.

Me, I'll continue to feed a good kibble. Easy, and when I figure in my
time, far cheaper than having to formulate and prep a raw diet. My dogs
have super coats, great stools, good muscling, bright eyes, and great
energy and endurance. They are very rarely ill, and usually only if
they've eaten something nasty like, oh, say, a 6 day old fish carcass
found at the local pond.

"Suja" wrote in message
news:v98Me.1093$ej5.1000@lakeread05...

One of the reasons I asked is that I have been mixing things up for the
dogs for a while now, giving them recreational bones occasionally. Over
time, Khan has become increasingly intolerant - it used to be that he was
fine if I didn't give him raw on consecutive days, then it went to no more
than twice a week, and currently, not at all. What happens can best be
described as explosive diarrhea, with emphasis on the explosive. I like
that both dogs like it so much and obviously enjoys it, and it is a good
treat for them, but the whole getting up every 1.5-2 hours for 2 days
straight is just not working out.

I don't know how anybody could think that a diet that gives a dog explosive
diarrhea is a good thing. JMO.

Hope it's not incipient pancreatitis or something.

flick 100785

Suja said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

What I found
endlessly fascinating is when someone who feeds Prey Model
posted pictures of her dogs going at a whole pig. Very
cool.

I once saw some pictures of a pack'o'dogs going after cow heads
that had been thrown into the yard. That was very cool, too.
I'm sure that the picture links were originally posted here.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Robin Nuttall said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

Also, what many people who push the "meat only"
raw diets for dogs forget is that for millinnea dogs have
existed as adjuncts to man. Feral dog populations, then and
now, lived off the castoffs from the human table.

And not just the table. Midden heaps were reasonable sources of
protein and very bioavailable pre-digested vegetable mush.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

diddy said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

I once saw some pictures of a pack'o'dogs going after cow
heads that had been thrown into the yard. That was very
cool, too. I'm sure that the picture links were
originally posted here.

I've seen Pack'o'dogs ripping cats apart, and it was very
uncool, if you ask me.

I agree, though I don't understand why you're comparing dead cow
parts with (supposedly) live cats.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

on 2005-08-16 at 18:30 wrote:

I once saw some pictures of a pack'o'dogs going after cow
heads that had been thrown into the yard. That was very
cool, too. I'm sure that the picture links were originally
posted here.

is it time for Dogs in Elk?

http://www.jerrypournelle.com/report...dogsinelk.html

--
shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com/
http://letters-to-esther.blogspot.com/ (updated 7/10/05)