From:

Regarding Pitbulls and Staffordshires, did you see Wooly's second post
on 6-4

No. I'm not here often, tend to visit in spurts. If the thread title
doesn't interest me, I tend to look at who's posted to it, as there are
regulars I always read.

She explained that Staffordshires are descendents of Pitbulls, and are
bred for civility and service. As Staffymom, do you consider that a fair
basic description of their development?

Are you trolling me? ;-)

Hmmm, civility and service. Maybe. I do think that people that live
with their breeding stock in the house rather than keeping 40 or 50 of
them on chain rigs value a more 'civil' dog. {Not the Schutzhund
definition of civil, but the pet owner's probable definition of a 'civil
dog'.}

I have AmStaffs, and I'm one of the people that consider them a
different breed than pit bulls. Nothing was added to the AmStaff to
make it different, but the dogs are bred to a different criteria than
ADBA pit bulls. I won't go into UKC dogs, because near as I can tell,
UKC will register just about anything.

It's an interesting thing to ponder, and it gets bully people riled real
quick when you voice an opinion opposing their own, and it almost always
turns nasty, much more so than any other breed I've ever been involved
with. Makes the show/working lines GSD and BC debates look like a chat
over tea and crumpets in comparison. All I know is that I find the
AmStaffs I've dealt with different in attributes than the pit bulls I've
worked, and it just doesn't make sense to me that you could breed dogs
for 60+ years, valuing and selecting for different things, and NOT end
up with a different breed, or a _very different variety.

If you talk to the BC people, the ones that still work the dogs on
sheep/cattle, and mention sport/BYB bred dogs, they'll tell you those
dogs are NOT border collies, or they'll say that they shouldn't be
called border collies because they haven't been bred to work. {Work
=ing herd.} But if you talk to 1/2 {guesstimating here!} the pit bull
folks, they'll adamantly state that Amstaffs and APBT's are the SAME
breed. Who's right? They can't both be right, can they? Either the
dogs are the same breed when bred for different purposes, or they
aren't. All I know is in the dogs I've worked, rescued/placed, and
owned, I consider the pit bull and the AmStaff to be different breeds.
For one thing, I've only known one hot, i.e. seriously dog aggressive
AmStaff, and she's buried behind our shop. I will not tolerate a
seriously dog aggressive pit bull or AmStaff, irregardless of how much I
may love them. I think dog aggression in the breeds is a HUGE problem,
and it would behoove breeders to breed away from it. {I'm talking about
dogs that will chew through chain link, jump through windows, scream and
claw at the ground while on leash, to get at another dog. I'm NOT
talking about a dog that will fight when a fight is brought to him/her.
I'm speaking of the dogs that will stop at nothing to get into a fight.}
Now, it's probably going to be posted to boards far and wide that I said
dog aggression was bad, and should be bred away from, so we'll probably
be deluged with posts claiming I'm an idiot. Oh well. ;-) We need to
do something, NOW, or we're going to lose these dogs. The berserk dog
aggressive dogs need to be culled, and dogs of iffy temperament need to
be euth'd, IMO. Yesterday. Again, IMO, only the creampuff dogs should
be placed from shelters and rescues, there's certainly enough of them
around. The shame is that there are some really nice, fiery dogs to be
had, but the people that have the knowledge and experience to be able to
handle them usually already have more dogs than they really want. I know
of a really, really nice little pit bull {could be AmStaff, but without
AKC papers I call 'em pit bulls} in foster right now that I'd love to
own. Drivey, nice structure and temperament, cute as a button with
natural rose ears, but I have THREE green dogs right now. Because of
dogs like him {and he barks at strangers! } I find no justification good
enough to be placing seriously dog aggressive dogs. I, like some sorta
masochistic idiot, signed up for google news alerts, key word 'pit bull'
and 'German shepherd'. There are many, many dog aggression incidents
that hit the paper, and spur BSL. Dogs that are so dog aggressive they
jump through plate glass windows and kill the neighbor's dog in it's own
yard, that sort of thing. It scares people, and with good reason.
Hell, *I* don't want to live next to a dog like that! {And I'd follow
the old country rule of S S S if I did, and he made it onto my
property.} Dogs of that ilk need to be dead, if we have any chance of
keeping these dogs in the future.

I'm far from alone in this, but I have trouble distinguishing between
the two breeds.

It's not hard to distinguish between a typical AmStaff and a typical
ADBA dog. You can probably google up some pics of both, and compare.
Since UKC will register either types as APBT's, you can find a more
diverse structure/type among their ranks, and IMO those dogs shouldn't
be used as support for the claim that they're the same breed. I
consider the UKC as almost a melting pot for pit bulls and AmStaffs, but
that's just me.

I'm certainly not an expert, just someone who's lived with,
rescued/placed, owned, trained, and titled a lot of the dogs over the
past... hmm, around 13 years now. I got involved in agility because I
thought I could help the breed's reputation. Not only do I think it's
not done one whit of good, I think we're on the fast road to losing the
privilege to own them legally within the United States. It sucks, but
I'm one of the fortunate ones, as I love dogs, period. I have other
breeds I love just as much as my AmStaffs, and if I had to claim one as
My Breed, it would be the working line GSD, though I'm quite smitten
with Border Collies these days. {Melanie just read that sentence twice.}
The AmStaffs I own now may be the last ones I'm legally allowed to own,
and it's hard for me to imagine a time when we don't have a
chubby-cheeked AST around the house. Diversification is good these
days.

I won't be ready for another dog for 3 1/2, 4 years. I'd like another
AmStaff, or a very drivey {if they exist, I've just never personally
seen one} Staffybull. I'll just have to see where we're at as far as
BSL by then, because no one is taking my dog from me, and I really don't
want to euthanize a good, healthy, trained friend because the law says
I can't own it because of it's breed. How stupid is that?

Debbie