Hi folks

I posted to this newsgroup a few weeks back, as I was planning on
taking a 4 month old lab / retreiver cross puppy from my mother in
law, and was looking for some advice.

Well, the dog is now living with us and is fitting in slowly, but I
think reasonably well. There are a few issues that I'm needing some
help with though. Firstly I should say that I live in a very remote
rural island location, and don't have access to professional dog
obedience classes. I *do* have experience of training dogs, having had
three GSDs in the past.

Firstly, the dog hasn't had *any* kind of training at all up to the
present - he's very excitable, isn't really sure of his name and
doesn't seem to know the meaning of NO. He's fairly successfully
sitting, and I'm using his ability to SIT to try to give him some
positive encouragement for something, as I feel that I'm spending most
of the day reprimanding him for one thing or another. I'm trying to
get him to learn DOWN, but this is where my first problem with him
comes in. He's *constantly* nipping / mouthing at my hands, and does
it more so if he knows that there's a treat in there. I'll get him to
sit, and then try to coax him into a down position, but he just goes
at my hand as if there's no tomorrow. Saying NO in a very firm voice
does absolutely nothing. Grabbing his collar to get his attention
makes him nip at the hand grabbing his collar. When this performance
is over, he's so worked up that he's jumping around, nipping and
mouthing at anything that'll move. I than resort to making him sit
quitely on the lead until he calms down. So - how do I stop him
nipping, and get him to understand that NO means NO ?

Secondly, and kind of related to the first issue is that he's so
excitable. Where he came from, he wasn't really exercised or
stimulated enough, and I'm sure that his boisterousness is due to his
boredom. He's now getting around 3 hours of walking a day, plus three
good 15-30 minute play sessions in the garden which I'm hoping will
sort that out, but it doesn't seem to be working so far. Any advice on
how to stop him jumping / pawing and generally getting worked up as
soon as I walk into the room would be appreciated as we've a 5 month
old baby that needs to be carried everywhere and doesn't appreciate a
nippy dog jumping around.

Those are the real negatives with him and I'd appreciate any sensible
advice that folks can give - we were his only option, as the m-i-l
couldn't cope and there was nowhere for him to go. He's got the bones
of a good dog in there, and I really want to get them out!

Thanks in advance,
David

"David Heggie" wrote in message
...
Hi folks

I posted to this newsgroup a few weeks back, as I was planning on
taking a 4 month old lab / retreiver cross puppy from my mother in
law, and was looking for some advice.

Congrats on your new addition!!! Any pictures???

Firstly, the dog hasn't had *any* kind of training at all up to the
present - he's very excitable, isn't really sure of his name and
doesn't seem to know the meaning of NO. He's fairly successfully

4 months old isn't out of the normal range for starting training,
so I don't think the lack of training will really affect you at this
point.

sitting, and I'm using his ability to SIT to try to give him some
positive encouragement for something, as I feel that I'm spending most
of the day reprimanding him for one thing or another. I'm trying to

This is good. And having a reliable sit is a great starting point
for more training. The first thing you need to do is make sure
he's always sitting before he gets his treat.

get him to learn DOWN, but this is where my first problem with him
comes in. He's *constantly* nipping / mouthing at my hands, and does
it more so if he knows that there's a treat in there. I'll get him to

My classes are in clicker training. The advice I'm giving is based
on what I'm learning in class and may or may not work for
your dog.

Before teaching down, or any other command, you need to
stop the nipping at your hands. The easiest way to do that
is to get the hands out of his reach. When he's jumping and
nipping at you, stand up with your hands out of reach and
ignore him completely. If he sits down (or even just stops
jumping up), click or praise, then give him a treat immediately.
More jumping, ignore. Sits down, treat. Keep doing this
until he stops jumping up to nip at your hands. After he
seems to get it with you standing up, you repeat the
procedure with you kneeling and sitting. When he knows
that he gets treats for being calm, and not for being excitable
and nippy, he should calm down.

The order that we're going in so far (Lexi is 4 months too,
and we've been to 4 classes so far) is SIT, LOOK
(saying their name causes them to stop what they are
doing and look at you), DOWN, COME. And we've
started walking on a loose leash.

We've also done some exercises where we approach
the other dogs in the class and reward them for staying
calm for a stranger. And where we trade and handle
each other's dogs to get them used to being held,
petted, and having their ears, feet, etc. handled by
strangers.

sit, and then try to coax him into a down position, but he just goes
at my hand as if there's no tomorrow. Saying NO in a very firm voice
does absolutely nothing. Grabbing his collar to get his attention
makes him nip at the hand grabbing his collar.

Yeah, you're playing with him. Stop teaching the down until you
get the nipping under control.

When this performance
is over, he's so worked up that he's jumping around, nipping and
mouthing at anything that'll move. I than resort to making him sit
quitely on the lead until he calms down. So - how do I stop him
nipping, and get him to understand that NO means NO ?

Have you tried making sure his training sessions are right
after play sessions so that he's tired out? You don't need
to teach him NO yet, as the ignoring should convey that,
but when you've got him calmed down a bit and trying to
please you, you can reintroduce a sound, (I personally
say, "Aht!" instead of "No!" -- no reason, it's just what
came naturally to me) when he's started in the wrong
direction, and he might come to realize that it means he
needs to try something different.

Secondly, and kind of related to the first issue is that he's so
excitable. Where he came from, he wasn't really exercised or
stimulated enough, and I'm sure that his boisterousness is due to his
boredom. He's now getting around 3 hours of walking a day, plus three
good 15-30 minute play sessions in the garden which I'm hoping will
sort that out, but it doesn't seem to be working so far. Any advice on
how to stop him jumping / pawing and generally getting worked up as
soon as I walk into the room would be appreciated as we've a 5 month
old baby that needs to be carried everywhere and doesn't appreciate a
nippy dog jumping around.

I hope the method I described above will help with this. You really
need to find a way to avoid giving feedback for his jumping,
though I realize that if you're holding the baby and he's nipping at
her and/or knocking you off balance, that might be hard to do.
I would suggest keeping him away from the baby until he's learned
some manners.

Those are the real negatives with him and I'd appreciate any sensible
advice that folks can give - we were his only option, as the m-i-l
couldn't cope and there was nowhere for him to go. He's got the bones
of a good dog in there, and I really want to get them out!

Good luck! And I hope that what I've suggested will help.

"bizby40" wrote in message
...

Before teaching down, or any other command, you need to
stop the nipping at your hands. The easiest way to do that
is to get the hands out of his reach. When he's jumping and
nipping at you, stand up with your hands out of reach and
ignore him completely.

IME, putting your hands out of reach will only encourage him to jump for
them more. he'll likely think it's a game. how you teach him not to nip
depends on how sensitive he is. with my girl Lola, i just yelped and turned
my back and ignored her when she nipped. it took about a week for her to
learn not to do that. with my male, Manu, he didn't respond to the
traditional methods, so i grabbed his cheek and growled in his face. this
worked quite well very quickly. now in a situation where almost any dog
would bite (cleaning a wound with alcohol, for example), he'll just turn and
lick your hand. he knows teeth do NOT touch skin. it always depends on the
dog.


an easy way to teach down is to have your dog sit (with treat in hand) and
say "down" as you lower the treat to the floor and slightly in front of the
dog. the dog will naturally lie down to try to get the treat. practice
until you no longer need to lure him to the floor, then you have your
"down".

as for "no", we use a sharp "ah-ah". it startles them into stopping, or at
least pausing what they're doing. during this time we can put them into a
more desired position (down stay, etc).

there are a lot of great books on training out there, maybe some folks will
chip in with some titles.

-kelly

"culprit" wrote in message
...

"bizby40" wrote in message
...

Before teaching down, or any other command, you need to
stop the nipping at your hands. The easiest way to do that
is to get the hands out of his reach. When he's jumping and
nipping at you, stand up with your hands out of reach and
ignore him completely.

IME, putting your hands out of reach will only encourage him to jump for
them more. he'll likely think it's a game. how you teach him not to nip
depends on how sensitive he is. with my girl Lola, i just yelped and
turned my back and ignored her when she nipped.

I didn't mean to hold your hands tantalizingly in view and yet
out of reach. You're right, that would seem like a game.
I just meant not to have them hanging down within reach.
He could put them in his pockets, or cross his arms or
whatever. Turning around is good too, but may not be
necessary.

Bizby

Thanks for the comments folks.

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 21:03:32 -0400, "bizby40"
wrote:


I didn't mean to hold your hands tantalizingly in view and yet
out of reach. You're right, that would seem like a game.

That seems to be his main problem - at the moment *everything* is a
game - I need to find a way of getting him to calm down when things
become too much for him, and for him to realise when he can play and
when it's not playtime.

He is used to a crate, and I've taken to calmly putting him in it for
five minutes whenever he gets beyond himself (which is very regular)
but I'm not sure if this is the right thing to do or not. I don't want
him getting a complex about the crate, and I'm not sure if I put him
in it to give *me* a break and time-out rather than him.

As I said in the original post, I've had three GSDs from puppies
before, and they've never been any trouble, always responding just
like you'd expect. He's a whole different kettle of fish though.

Thanks,
David

David Heggie wrote in
:

That seems to be his main problem - at the moment *everything* is a
game

That's what being a puppy is all about! Enjoy your puppy!

(Of course, training him is also a good idea.)

--
Catherine
& Zoe the cockerchow
& Queenie the black gold retriever
& Rosalie the calico

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 13:10:47 +0000 (UTC), ceb
wrote:

David Heggie wrote in
:

That seems to be his main problem - at the moment *everything* is a
game

That's what being a puppy is all about! Enjoy your puppy!

(Of course, training him is also a good idea.)

I know, I know . . . . .

"David Heggie" wrote in message
...

He is used to a crate, and I've taken to calmly putting him in it for
five minutes whenever he gets beyond himself (which is very regular)
but I'm not sure if this is the right thing to do or not. I don't want
him getting a complex about the crate, and I'm not sure if I put him
in it to give *me* a break and time-out rather than him.

be careful with using the crate as "punishment", it might make him not like
it later. teach him a down stay and use that instead. it's quite
effective, and very useful in many situations.

-kelly

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 18:46:02 +0100, David Heggie
wrote:

Firstly, the dog hasn't had *any* kind of training at all up to the
present - he's very excitable, isn't really sure of his name and
doesn't seem to know the meaning of NO. He's fairly successfully
sitting, and I'm using his ability to SIT to try to give him some
positive encouragement for something, as I feel that I'm spending most
of the day reprimanding him for one thing or another. I'm trying to
get him to learn DOWN, but this is where my first problem with him
comes in. He's *constantly* nipping / mouthing at my hands, and does
it more so if he knows that there's a treat in there. I'll get him to
sit, and then try to coax him into a down position, but he just goes
at my hand as if there's no tomorrow. Saying NO in a very firm voice
does absolutely nothing. Grabbing his collar to get his attention
makes him nip at the hand grabbing his collar. When this performance
is over, he's so worked up that he's jumping around, nipping and
mouthing at anything that'll move. I than resort to making him sit
quitely on the lead until he calms down. So - how do I stop him
nipping, and get him to understand that NO means NO ?

I've had a couple dogs who were a bit too food oriented to make food
reward a great option. But there are other things to use as a reward.
My lab mix lives for attention. So every time she wanted attention,
she had to sit. No one was allowed to pet her when she was not
sitting. It sounds like your dog also has the sitting down. Use the
same principles for other commands. I wouldn't worry so much about
down right now but would concentrate on the nipping. If he puts his
mouth on any part of you, you say NO and then withdraw all attention.
He thinks that your grabbing the collar, etc. is playing with him and
he's being rewarded by it and continuing the game from there. You are
getting double punishment while he is getting double reward. So if
what he wants is to eat and play, don't feed him and don't have any
interaction with him when he nips or mouths. Just work on that for
now. When you have the nipping and mouthing nipped in the bud, so to
speak, you can proceed with down and other commands without having to
deal with the nipping at the same time. In the meantime, if whatever
you are doing is getting him wound up and sitting calms him down, tell
him to sit earlier in the game. As soon as he starts down the wrong
road, tell him NO, then tell him to sit and reward him for sitting.
Don't wait until several more escalating rounds to have him sit and
calm down. This also gives him a chance to get your approval and you
to get his attention and interest intermittently instead of some good
interaction followed by repeated bad interactions of you getting more
frustrated and him trying to play because he thinks that's what you
are up to and then finally getting some more positive when he sits a
long time later.

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy, so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 08:45:19 +0100, David Heggie
wrote:

Thanks for the comments folks.

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 21:03:32 -0400, "bizby40"
wrote:


I didn't mean to hold your hands tantalizingly in view and yet
out of reach. You're right, that would seem like a game.

That seems to be his main problem - at the moment *everything* is a
game - I need to find a way of getting him to calm down when things
become too much for him, and for him to realise when he can play and
when it's not playtime.

Welcome to the world of labs where all of life is a game and all the
world is his personal playground!

You already have a good way of calming him down. When you ask him to
sit, he does it. You can also make play time more distinguishable for
him by, for example, throwing a favorite ball several times and then
putting the ball away and having him sit to signal that it is no
longer play time. I agree with the poster who said to make sure you
run him out of excess energy before trying to get him to focus on
training. You can also train him to calm himself even while he is in
play mode and to listen to you better when wanting to play by, for
example, throwing the ball and then making him sit before throwing it
again. If he can settle himself down, he gets to play some more. If
he can't, play ends. If you have to end play before his energy is run
out, only end it for a short time and then get the ball again and
start over. The bad part of having a lab pup is that they have tons
of energy. The good part is that they pick up quickly on what gets
them what they want.

He is used to a crate, and I've taken to calmly putting him in it for
five minutes whenever he gets beyond himself (which is very regular)
but I'm not sure if this is the right thing to do or not. I don't want
him getting a complex about the crate, and I'm not sure if I put him
in it to give *me* a break and time-out rather than him.

As I said in the original post, I've had three GSDs from puppies
before, and they've never been any trouble, always responding just
like you'd expect. He's a whole different kettle of fish though.

Heh. I just got my first GSD as an adult rescue. Believe me,
expecting your lab to act like your GSD's did will only lead to
disappointment. But they are both great dogs when you tune into what
makes them tick. Once you know what the dog wants, you have the power
to get the behavior you want. For labs, it is food and play and
attention rather than pleasing you per se, but they still want you to
be happy with them. If you can realize when you are letting him turn
your training session into a play session and refuse to play until he
does what you want, you'll have a great dog.

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy, so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay