Okay, next breed on the short-list for research as potential future dog is
the Welsh Terrier. Note that this breed research thing is for a dog in
addition to a Boxer and one who would act as companion first and hopeful
agility dog second.

This one is a favorite all around in looks, size, personality and agility
potential. The only drawbacks I can find from reading club, breeder &
rescue websites a

1. its a Terrier. I'm fairly afraid of Terrier breeds for their widely
emphasized obstinance and energy levels. I don't know what these two things
are in comparison to but it would help to know. Obviously they're more
energetic and/or busy than a Boxer but are they as energetic and mentally
busy as a Border Collie? In terms of obstinance, Boxers can be really
obstinant and I'm well versed in the trait from Dachshunds but is Terrier
obstinance much worse?

2. off-leash reliability. This is something we are totally used to with
Boxers but its also something Scott consistently complains about. I don't
want a dog to just let loose out the front door but are Terriers generally
reliable off-leash with training or will they blow-off training to chase
prey? Pebbles would walk for miles with her nose to the ground if allowed
but I could distract her and call her back verbally. Boxers think being
loose is a tremendously fun game of "catch me." I find the funny game
mentality harder to overcome with training than the prey/tracking instinct.
Am I wrong?

I have a few breeders in mind to talk to if, upon more research and getting
feedback on these questions, it looks like we can keep them on the short
list. There's absolutely no rush. We just get in these modes every few
months of picking up the list, doing some more research, then putting down
the list. We've probably gone through about 7 breeds in the 3 years, all of
which we ditched.

Funnily enough though if we'd considered a Boxer without having lived with
them we probably would've said HELL NO! Turns out its a great fit though
so that's why I'm asking those of you who may know some Welsh Terriers.
What do you hear most about them, pro or con?

--
Tara

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 13:27:24 -0400, "Tee"
, clicked their heels and said:

Okay, next breed on the short-list for research as potential future dog is
the Welsh Terrier.

They aren't that easy to find. I knew several back when I was in HS.
All of them were biters. I've known a few in adulthood. Not biters
but just something a little weird about them too.

1. its a Terrier. I'm fairly afraid of Terrier breeds for their widely
emphasized obstinance and energy levels. I don't know what these two things
are in comparison to but it would help to know. Obviously they're more
energetic and/or busy than a Boxer but are they as energetic and mentally
busy as a Border Collie? In terms of obstinance, Boxers can be really
obstinant and I'm well versed in the trait from Dachshunds but is Terrier
obstinance much worse?

The WT's I've known have not been overly energetic. OTOH, they've
definitely all had their own agenda.

2. off-leash reliability. This is something we are totally used to with
Boxers but its also something Scott consistently complains about. I don't
want a dog to just let loose out the front door but are Terriers generally
reliable off-leash with training or will they blow-off training to chase
prey?

I don't think you can generalize about Terriers as a group for this.
Most Westies, for instance, are pretty easy dogs, good for first time
dog owners and not prone to roaming. JRTs are a totally different
beast and each breed varies a lot.

Pebbles would walk for miles with her nose to the ground if allowed
but I could distract her and call her back verbally. Boxers think being
loose is a tremendously fun game of "catch me." I find the funny game
mentality harder to overcome with training than the prey/tracking instinct.
Am I wrong?

I suspect the game thing is harder to overcome because at some level,
the owner finds it amusing. Training is training. You want
reliability, you can get it, you just have to work for it. Some dogs
just take more work than others or a more unique approach.





--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfr...bedience/album

"Janet B" wrote in message
...

They aren't that easy to find. I knew several back when I was in HS.
All of them were biters. I've known a few in adulthood. Not biters
but just something a little weird about them too.

Hmm. There's at least one breeder advertising them in my local paper. This
may be a byb. There's a breeder one state over that does Welsh Terriers and
Airedales as well.

The WT's I've known have not been overly energetic. OTOH, they've
definitely all had their own agenda.

I can handle that for the most part. I'm not looking to be a total lazyass
with my next dog but I don't want to take on a training challenge larger
than my capabilities. IOW I don't want to say WTF did I get myself into?! 6
months into ownership

I don't think you can generalize about Terriers as a group for this.
Most Westies, for instance, are pretty easy dogs, good for first time
dog owners and not prone to roaming. JRTs are a totally different
beast and each breed varies a lot.

I'm thinking that off-leash training & reliability are easier to achieve in
many terriers than I'd originally thought otherwise it doesn't seem logical
that there are so many participating in dog sports.

I suspect the game thing is harder to overcome because at some level,
the owner finds it amusing. Training is training. You want
reliability, you can get it, you just have to work for it. Some dogs
just take more work than others or a more unique approach.

I haven't found many Boxers that I can get reliability from when off-leash
no matter what/how long I try. I have noticed that all the ones I could
take off-leash and have good verbal control over were all males. The
tradeoff is that they stay goofy & empty-headed longer than the females.

I think I make Boxers sound untrainable and I know they're not but I've had
a really intelligent, independent and responsive Min. Dachshund so I tend to
make comparisons. If I told Pebbles to jump she did. She housetrained as a
baby so easily and caught on to anything I attempted to teach her, no matter
how badly I may have screwed up the attempt, with amazing quickness.

Pebbles listened *most* of the time whereas Fancy waits to see if I'm
serious or just joking around. Sometimes it takes her several tries to come
to a conclusion and by then I'm at the "you're in trouble now missy" stage.
I admit that we do find her, and Boxers in general, very funny and we're
likely much more lenient which is a problem. I'm thinking that a dog not
quite as prone to goofiness will help offset our own failures, at least for
the purposes of doing things like agility.

--
Tara

I'm thinking that off-leash training & reliability are easier to achieve in
many terriers than I'd originally thought otherwise it doesn't seem logical
that there are so many participating in dog sports.


My friend has a Border Terrier, a breed advertised as never letting
offleash.

With training, her BT is totally reliable offleash. So it can be done

From:

Obviously they're more energetic and/or busy than a Boxer but are they
as energetic and mentally busy as a Border Collie?

They can have BC energy, but the brains are _way different. Terriers
are, for the most part, very independent. You'll have to work hard at
gaining some qualities desirable for a working partner that come
naturally with a herding breed.

but is Terrier obstinance much worse?

Can be, but it really depends more on the individual dog rather than
the breed. You can head much of that obstinance off at the pass if you
get a pup and start working immediately to develop a work ethic.

but are Terriers generally reliable off-leash with training or will
they blow-off training to chase prey?

If you seriously want a reliable, off lead terrier, it might involve
investing in an e-collar and lessons on how to use it. Some are so
prey-driven there's really no other way to make them 'reliable'.

What do you hear most about them, pro or con?

Same sex aggression, taking advantage of a slip in owner's diligence and
taking off.

Tara, have you given much thought to the grooming of these terriers?
While pulling coat is no big deal to some people, I absolutely hate it,
and will never have another dog that requires it. It's a huge PITA. I
also dislike the way they feel when I pet them, and that's another
biggie for me. shrug I've owned my first and last wire coat in Rush.
{Border Terrier}

Debbie

"Tee" wrote in message
...
I'm thinking that off-leash training & reliability are easier to achieve in
many terriers than I'd originally thought otherwise it doesn't seem
logical
that there are so many participating in dog sports.

Near where I live there is both a pod of Welsh Terriers and a larger one of
Border Terriers. At local dog classes I see Cairns and Irish. Earthdog
tests pull in quite a few Westies but the local dogs there are all Welsh and
Borders.

And yet, at agility trials, I have NEVER seen a Welsh or an Irish. I
wouldn't swear that I have never seen a Cairn or a Westie but I can't
remember one. It may simply be because the local breeders are SO
conformation oriented (and a little obedience) that they just never get to
it, nor do their puppy buyers. We actually visited one of the Welsh
breeders before we got Spenser, thinking we'd try a little different type of
terrier. We left there thinking we could handle one okay but preferred
something a little softer - which brought us to schnauzers and borders.
From what I've seen of some breeds of terriers, motivation (to please you)
is way more a problem than I wanted to deal with.

In spite of the fact that the AKC Nationals (12") were won by a miniature
schnauzer (and another was 4th), we are more often than not the only
miniature schnauzers at a trial. I'm not sure why that is. Pet schnauzers
are certainly out there in NYS. The ones I see competing are (with one
exception that I put on the handler) fairly motivated and all are reliable
in the trial environment. We *are* being approached by more and more people
expressing interest in doing agility with their pet schnauzers so maybe it
was just a matter of visibility. (No, I'm not trying to talk you into one.
It's just what I know best.)

Mostly they are slightly surprised to see that schnauzers actually can do
it. But I think that goes back to a more general thing - not just
terriers. People watch agility on TV and see border collies and shelties.
It never occurs to them, until they go to a trial, that their cocker spaniel
can also do it.

The Borders do come to agility in our area. In numbers about the same as
mini schnauzers. The Borders I've seen have not been an off-leash
challenge. Speed and motivation have been more of a consideration. *Most*
handlers in this area have no difficulty keeping up with their Borders in
the agility ring. OTOH, I have heard of other areas where the Borders were
setting the course on fire, so there must be great variation in breeding.
And in handling.

I also see about the same number of Norwich Terriers at agility lately. Or
maybe some of them are Norfolk - I'm not always close enough to see the ears
but I know they're not Cairns. Doing pretty well.

And, of course, there are the Jacks. Always a few Jacks in the mix. And
see an occasional fox terrier. The 10-ish year old girl I see handling is
running a Jack.

For a cross section of smaller dogs, at a typical trial class in 12 inch,
we'll have the usual shelties and corgis. Usually a papillon or two and a
King Charles. A cocker or a Boston. A couple of Jacks and a Border or two.
A poodle. And our schnauzers.

And I don't see off-leash reliability as a problem in any of them. I
wouldn't trust our dogs next to a busy street with a squirrel, but their
recall is reliable under trial conditions. The dogs I see take off (and it
always happens a few times a year) tend to be hunting breeds - and I've seen
more than one boxer take a romp

Any of that help?

~~Judy.

"Debbie S" wrote in message
...
They can have BC energy, but the brains are _way different. Terriers
are, for the most part, very independent. You'll have to work hard at
gaining some qualities desirable for a working partner that come
naturally with a herding breed.

Very true. Always remember what a breed was originally intended to do.
Terriers were supposed to think for themselves to work through problems.
Many of them consider people as very nice to have around but totally
unnecessary for their "work". Unless you're willing to pull that board pile
apart for a pack of Jack Russells to better attack the rats underneath - as
my DH did one day. They loved him forever because he had shown he
understood THEIR game.

You know, I keep coming back to schnauzers and borders (which I know is what
Debbie has). They are considered "softer" terriers. They're also the
ones - except for Jacks - that I see the most in agility. Whether that
means anything in a large picture, I don't know.

. I
also dislike the way they feel when I pet them, and that's another
biggie for me.

You know, that was one of the factors - maybe the final straw - that kept us
from further considering a Welsh. I wasn't sure I would adjust to the feel
of the coat when I had my hand on the dog on the couch. It might have been
silly. I might have adjusted but I really like a softer coat under my
fingers. I can handle the stripped coat of a schnauzer - which actually is
softer than you expect - but the harder coats of some breeds is more wiry
than I like.

~~Judy

You know, I keep coming back to schnauzers and borders (which I know is what
Debbie has). They are considered "softer" terriers. They're also the
ones - except for Jacks - that I see the most in agility. Whether that
means anything in a large picture, I don't know.

I have heard that too, and while my friends Border Terrier is very
motivated to train (he is the greediest dog I have ever met, will do
anything for a food reward), he is a Terrier when it comes to rodents.
You can just see the hardwired instinct to kill when he looks at my
friends rabbit..

"Judy" wrote in message
...

And yet, at agility trials, I have NEVER seen a Welsh or an Irish. I
wouldn't swear that I have never seen a Cairn or a Westie but I can't
remember one. It may simply be because the local breeders are SO
conformation oriented (and a little obedience) that they just never get to
it, nor do their puppy buyers. We actually visited one of the Welsh
breeders before we got Spenser, thinking we'd try a little different type
of
terrier. We left there thinking we could handle one okay but preferred
something a little softer - which brought us to schnauzers and borders.
From what I've seen of some breeds of terriers, motivation (to please you)
is way more a problem than I wanted to deal with.

Min. Schnauzers have always been on our short list of "maybe breeds" but the
one thing that keeps the breed from coming out a clear winner is the
reported yappiness. That and I've read, via articles, forum posts and
rescue sites, that they can be a challenge wrt housetraining.

I don't ever want another dog that is a challenge to get or keep
housetrained and by that I mean the kind of challenge presented by, what
seems like, many smaller breeds who are known for piddling here and there or
just full-out urinating indoors like Dachshunds are known for. I'm not a
clean freak so much as I won't live in unsanitary conditions.

Pebbles was a major yapper. She'd talk just to hear herself talk and after
11 years it still drove me batty. I expect alert barking, I am fine with
happy barking, I just don't want a 24/7 barker or one who barks louder &
longer when told to shut up (like Pebbles). That's why I am not considering
another Min. Dachshund.

In spite of the fact that the AKC Nationals (12") were won by a miniature
schnauzer (and another was 4th), we are more often than not the only
miniature schnauzers at a trial. I'm not sure why that is.

Min. Schnauzers are becoming much more plentiful in the Charleston area.
One of my clients is on her 4th and another is on his first. I see them at
the park pretty often and want to say there were at least two competing in
April's agility trial and I was only there for a very short time one morning
of the event .

Mostly they are slightly surprised to see that schnauzers actually can do
it. But I think that goes back to a more general thing - not just
terriers. People watch agility on TV and see border collies and shelties.
It never occurs to them, until they go to a trial, that their cocker
spaniel
can also do it.

Spaniels are also on the short list and I am beginning to think more and
more that they are the type we should focus on. They seem more up my alley
in terms of trainability without the hardcore drive and obstinance I hear of
so often wrt terriers. I've just never oohed & aahed over one (and we used
to have an ESS) the way I do over Borders, Welshes & Cairns. I need to
figure out though if I'm being unwittingly superficial and being drawn too
much to their looks.

Cockers and Boykins are extremely common dogs here and the 12yo I talked
about handles a Cocker. Boykins are the state dog but I'm not a big fan of
them. The one that lives across the street seems like a deaf dummy on
speed. He's always in motion but doesn't seem to concentrate very often and
is either the bravest or dumbest dog alive.

Scott has Brittany Spaniels on the short list and I have CKCS and Cockers
there as well. We had an ESS years ago which resulted in a relationship
failure and, while we were ignorant dog people then, I'm really wary of
considering them again.

One of my clients had a Cocker who died earlier this year of old age and my
neighbor is on her second so I've had ample occasion to be around them. My
neighbor's new one is a conformation career wash-out and while her
temperament is too skittish, on the unpredictable side, she is the softest
thing to hold and the quickest little learner. She's like the ultimate
trick dog.

Their size and seemingly good trainability keep them on the list as a strong
possible, particularly since Amie will likely be doing alot of handling, but
I've heard about some housetraining issues that may or may not be breed-wide
that I still need to investigate.

I also see about the same number of Norwich Terriers at agility lately.
Or
maybe some of them are Norfolk - I'm not always close enough to see the
ears
but I know they're not Cairns. Doing pretty well.

I'll report back after the trial weekend but I don't think there are any
Norwich or Cairn Terriers doing agility here. I've never even seen one out
in public.

And, of course, there are the Jacks. Always a few Jacks in the mix. And
see an occasional fox terrier. The 10-ish year old girl I see handling is
running a Jack.

Jacks are just too much dog for me and I suspect most terriers will be. At
this point in time I can't easily give a dog like a Jack the kind of
exercise, stimulation and commitment to training it requires from a good
owner. I suspect it'd be the same for alot of terriers which is another
reason I fear selecting one.

For a cross section of smaller dogs, at a typical trial class in 12 inch,
we'll have the usual shelties and corgis. Usually a papillon or two and a
King Charles. A cocker or a Boston. A couple of Jacks and a Border or
two.
A poodle. And our schnauzers.

IIRC the April trial showed a bunch of BCs, several Aussies, Cockers, Jacks
and Bostons and alot of mixed dogs. I'm not ruling out a mix from a shelter
either, should we make the decision to do agility and then find ourselves
looking for an agility dog, but would prefer to select a mix where at least
one of the breeds involved is recognizable.

We're immediate gratification people (I know its bad) so if we catch this
bug then we won't want to wait for a puppy then wait until the pup is a year
old. We'll want to get started much sooner and I'd rather adopt or acquire
an adult from a good breeder anyway.

And I don't see off-leash reliability as a problem in any of them. I
wouldn't trust our dogs next to a busy street with a squirrel, but their
recall is reliable under trial conditions.

That's good to know. I'm not a great trainer, probably not even a good
trainer, but if I decide to do it then I'll give it my all. I just need a
dog who is ok at occasionally interpreting what I want and ignoring the fact
that my body language may be out of sync with what I'm verbally commanding.
I've heard Min. Schnauzers are pretty tolerant of so-so training from owners
as spaniels supposedly are.

The dogs I see take off (and it
always happens a few times a year) tend to be hunting breeds - and I've
seen
more than one boxer take a romp

LOL. I'm sooo not surprised. Fancy is getting old and it seems like its
coming on quickly. I'll be taking her to the vet to see if anything is
wrong but she's slowing down alot and while she's still typically needy of
attention and delirious when she receives it she'll still blow off known
commands when it suits her. Even if she weren't slowing down she's learned
that she can do things her way and that the worst punishment is something
not so terrible anyway. Like I said, we've ruined her.

Any of that help?

Tremendously! Maybe you can help fill in some more info on Min. Schnauzers.
My one client has had them for years and says she has never had problems
with "accidents" in the house. Her dog only barks when I come to the door
but as soon as I'm in and I give her some attention she's quiet as a mouse.
My other client says his boy Trooper (who had a sex change due to getting
stuck in a female and her taking off...maybe you remember me posting about
it) has frequent accidents (like once a week), no UTI, and is very yappy.


--
Tara

"Debbie S" wrote in message
...

From:

Obviously they're more energetic and/or busy than a Boxer but are they
as energetic and mentally busy as a Border Collie?

They can have BC energy, but the brains are _way different. Terriers
are, for the most part, very independent. You'll have to work hard at
gaining some qualities desirable for a working partner that come
naturally with a herding breed.

Interesting. I'm used to independent with my Min. Dachshund *but* I'm only
used to it on a companion animal only basis. Meaning I never did anything
with her that required a working relationship or the need to have total
control over her in highly distracting & off-leash events.

but is Terrier obstinance much worse?

Can be, but it really depends more on the individual dog rather than
the breed. You can head much of that obstinance off at the pass if you
get a pup and start working immediately to develop a work ethic.

I'm beginning to wonder if terriers as a whole have just gotten lumped into
one giant category with "beware" signs plastered all over them. It seems
that I always hear of a terrier being spoken about as if it were a
born-again-Napoleon.

but are Terriers generally reliable off-leash with training or will
they blow-off training to chase prey?

If you seriously want a reliable, off lead terrier, it might involve
investing in an e-collar and lessons on how to use it. Some are so
prey-driven there's really no other way to make them 'reliable'.

Ahh, thanks. If I had a choice, and had decided on a terrier, I would do
all in my power to go with a softer one, not the boldest & brightest of the
bunch and not the one with the strongest prey drive. I know they don't
advertise these things on their foreheads though so even a soft dog might
have a strong prey drive.

What do you hear most about them, pro or con?

Same sex aggression, taking advantage of a slip in owner's diligence and
taking off.

Both of those traits I'm already accustomed to in Boxers actually.

Tara, have you given much thought to the grooming of these terriers?

Not overly much but only because a family member who lives 5 minutes away
used to be a groomer. She offered free grooming (not daily brushing type
things) services in exchange for all the times per year I have to go fix her
computer or hook up some piece of electronics for her.

While pulling coat is no big deal to some people, I absolutely hate it,
and will never have another dog that requires it. It's a huge PITA.

Its certainly something I will give more consideration to. I am generally
self-sufficient and don't like relying on other people to do things for me.
That personality trait would very likely have me trying to do the dog's
grooming myself. I may then find that I hate it as much as you do which
would suck.

I
also dislike the way they feel when I pet them, and that's another
biggie for me. shrug I've owned my first and last wire coat in Rush.
{Border Terrier}

I loved the feel of the BT I met last April. He was the cutest, coolest,
cuddliest little dog and he just sat there, on the table, with the doggles
on, and didn't break his sit even though all kinds of people kept coming up
and cooing at him.


--
Tara