After searching for months for a pure bred chow chow I finally found a
local hobby breeder. I got a male at 8 weeks. Come two weeks later
and a trip to the vet for puppy shots I find out her has a third stage
heart murmur.

My question is this..are heart murmurs common in chows? This is
definatly my breed of choice and I've been around them for a long time.
I gave my puppy back to the breeder and he is getting more involved
test to see what the next step is. I gave up my rights because I
didn't want an expensive dog with medical problems.

It has been hard for me to even find information about chows, besides
the basics, anyone know about their medical problems?

" said in
rec.pets.dogs.breeds:

It has been hard for me to even find information about
chows, besides the basics, anyone know about their medical
problems?

http://dogplay.com/Breeding/health.html

The above is a good place to check for health conditions in many
breeds. I didn't see anything specific as to heart murmurs,
though. What kind of health testing does your dog's breeder do?

http://dogplay.com/Breeding/ethics.html

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

wrote in message
oups.com...
After searching for months for a pure bred chow chow I finally found a
local hobby breeder. I got a male at 8 weeks. Come two weeks later
and a trip to the vet for puppy shots I find out her has a third stage
heart murmur.

Sorry to hear about your puppy's heart problem. The Chow Chow Club Inc.
www.chowclub.org is the national club and has many resources available,
including breeder referal. There are also several Chow discussion groups
that have knowledgeable Chow people who are more than willing to share
information. is a good one.
Are there dog shows in your area where you can go and meet Chow exhibitors
and breeders? Sometimes there's a wait for a good healthy puppy since Chows
have declined in popularity in recent years, but shows are a good way to
make connections and get on a waiting list.
Do you know the important questions to ask a breeder--health testing,
temperament, contract?
Good luck in your next search.

Sorry, I meant further testing at his local vet. Additional test need
to be ran to see if the heart is infact enlarged. That alone is $500,
after I saw the vet reccomendations I said no way no how. If he does
have the enlarded heart he will be put to sleep.....I didn't want to
take that chance. Thanks for your reply.

I thought I asked all the right questions, I got first vet records and
had a pick of the litter, met the mom and dad. Everything seemed to
check out. The breeder offered me another puppy, I polietly declined.
My vet mentioned that the other dogs could develop heart problems as
well. I'm in Dallas, Texas, I haven't seen anything posted about shows
around here. We have a North Texas Chow club and all their contact
information is bad. No email address work. I tried to get in with
them a few different times.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I thought I asked all the right questions, I got first vet records and
had a pick of the litter, met the mom and dad. Everything seemed to
check out.

Before you talk to another breeder, check out the links that Margaret
suggested of the national club and the yahoo group. Then also check out
www.dog-play.com and find out how to recognize a responsible breeder. Then
you'll know what to check out the next time.

First vet records, as you now know, mean from little to nothing. You should
have been informed and educated (by the breeder, if you were not already)
about the health problems in the breed and what she was doing to address the
issues. Copies of any testing of the parents, grandparents, and more should
have been made available to you. I don't know that heart murmurs are a
problem in Chows. Maybe they aren't and the breeder was totally not at
fault in any way for his lack of knowledge. Except that it certainly seems
to me that his vet should have been able to hear a stage 3 heart murmur.

The fact that the breeder didn't intend to keep the pick of the litter for
himself - which is why most responsible breeders HAVE litters - was a danger
sign. It's possible that he was breeding for show and none of the puppies
in that litter were show prospects. But normally, with a responsible
breeder, the pick of the litter does not go to a random buyer. It would not
be unusual, with a responsible breeder, for you to have no choice at all -
the breeder will make the match. It appears, in this case as you describe
him as a "hobby" breeder, that his only intent was to produce puppies to
sell.

Not so fatal, but still worth a red flag question is the fact that the
breeder had both parents on the premises. Yes, it does happen with
responsible breeders but they should not only have a good explanation but
anticipate your question about it. You want a breeder who picked the best
two dogs he could put together for the breeding, not just the two that
happened to live in his house and who had their reproductive parts still
intact.

IOW, one of the questions you needed to ask was "why did you breed this
litter" and "why did you choose these two dogs". Responsible breeders breed
carefully chosen pairs with the intent of improving the breed.

We have a North Texas Chow club and all their contact
information is bad. No email address work. I tried to get in with
them a few different times.

I understand your frustration with this. It is pretty common with clubs
that don't have much of a webmaster or who don't pay much attention to the
website after it's originally designed. Are there any phone numbers on the
site? Call them. Even if they aren't the person you need to reach, they
will know how to reach that person. Clubs are not all that big.

Go to the national club site and if they list the same contact information
for the North Texas club that you have then write to someone on *their* site
and tell them that you have been unable to contact the local club. You
should get answers fairly quickly. The world of dogs is not all that big
and the world of chow chows is fairly small. The national club should be
willing and able to help you not only contact the local club but to also get
you lots of information.

~~Judy

"Judy" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
oups.com...
I thought I asked all the right questions, I got first vet records and
had a pick of the litter, met the mom and dad. Everything seemed to
check out.

Before you talk to another breeder, check out the links that Margaret
suggested of the national club and the yahoo group. Then also check out
www.dog-play.com and find out how to recognize a responsible breeder.
Then
you'll know what to check out the next time.

First vet records, as you now know, mean from little to nothing. You
should
have been informed and educated (by the breeder, if you were not already)
about the health problems in the breed and what she was doing to address
the
issues. Copies of any testing of the parents, grandparents, and more
should
have been made available to you. I don't know that heart murmurs are a
problem in Chows. Maybe they aren't and the breeder was totally not at
fault in any way for his lack of knowledge. Except that it certainly
seems
to me that his vet should have been able to hear a stage 3 heart murmur.

The fact that the breeder didn't intend to keep the pick of the litter for
himself - which is why most responsible breeders HAVE litters - was a
danger
sign. It's possible that he was breeding for show and none of the puppies
in that litter were show prospects. But normally, with a responsible
breeder, the pick of the litter does not go to a random buyer. It would
not
be unusual, with a responsible breeder, for you to have no choice at all -
the breeder will make the match. It appears, in this case as you describe
him as a "hobby" breeder, that his only intent was to produce puppies to
sell.

Not so fatal, but still worth a red flag question is the fact that the
breeder had both parents on the premises. Yes, it does happen with
responsible breeders but they should not only have a good explanation but
anticipate your question about it. You want a breeder who picked the best
two dogs he could put together for the breeding, not just the two that
happened to live in his house and who had their reproductive parts still
intact.

IOW, one of the questions you needed to ask was "why did you breed this
litter" and "why did you choose these two dogs". Responsible breeders
breed
carefully chosen pairs with the intent of improving the breed.

We have a North Texas Chow club and all their contact
~~Judy

Thank you, Judy, for adding all the information you did.
Major Chow health problems are hip dysplasia, knee/elbow problems,
entropian, thyroid. Skin problems and allergies are not uncommon.
Prospective buyers should ask for documentation of these health checks--OFA
numbers, CERF report.
They should also ask if the parents have conformation or obedience titles?
What is the breeder's philosophy re. breeding? (To improve the breed vs. to
get puppies just like mom/dad because mom/dad is such a wonderful dog)
I am wondering if this "hobby" breeder is more of what we'd call a
"backyard" breeder who may not even be aware of the many issues related to
truly responsible breeding or doesn't care.
Interesting that they were willing to take the puppy back and offered
another in its place. Was the replacement puppy from the same litter?
How many litters have they produced?
Since the holidays are approaching, I would advise all prospective puppy
buyers to wait until after the 1st of the year to call any breeders. Many
Chow breeders I know will NOT sell a puppy around Christmas even if they
have a house full.

"Margaret" wrote in message
...
Major Chow health problems are hip dysplasia, knee/elbow problems,
entropian, thyroid. Skin problems and allergies are not uncommon.
Prospective buyers should ask for documentation of these health
checks--OFA
numbers, CERF report.

I'd still be suspicious but it's not necessarily a terrible thing that the
breeder didn't have fountains of knowledge on heart murmurs. But for a vet
to miss a grade 3 sounds pretty amazing to me.

One of our dogs has a very low heart rate. Even when at the vet's office.
Each time, each vet considers whether to call it a grade 1 murmur. And each
time they ultimately decide that what they are actually hearing is the
operation of the heart valves themselves due to her low heart rate. If they
can hear that, how can a vet miss a more serious murmur?

I am wondering if this "hobby" breeder is more of what we'd call a
"backyard" breeder who may not even be aware of the many issues related to
truly responsible breeding or doesn't care.

Certainly what we're all thinking. But the evidence doesn't yet appear to
be overwhelming.

Interesting that they were willing to take the puppy back and offered
another in its place.

Well, actually a responsible breeder might have done the same. (As would
any puppy miller.) Certainly he gets points for taking the puppy back
immediately. So I'm not on to total condemnation of the breeder yet.

Since the holidays are approaching, I would advise all prospective puppy
buyers to wait until after the 1st of the year to call any breeders. Many
Chow breeders I know will NOT sell a puppy around Christmas even if they
have a house full.

True of responsible breeders of all breeds. We are a household of adults
and still had to wait until the 26th to pick up Spenser from the breeder.
We had visited and been interviewed during the fall. It was the end of
November before we were told that we were approved. So, I wouldn't say
"don't call" but rather be aware that even if the deal is agreed upon that
the puppy may (and should) be held at the breeder's until after the
holidays.

I always cringe when our local shelter runs their holiday specials.

~~Judy

If original poster will contact me privately, I have up to date N. Texas
Chow club contact information.

Margaret

On 16 Nov 2005 11:33:26 -0800, " wrote:

After searching for months for a pure bred chow chow I finally found a
local hobby breeder. I got a male at 8 weeks. Come two weeks later
and a trip to the vet for puppy shots I find out her has a third stage
heart murmur.

My question is this..are heart murmurs common in chows?

It depends on who you ask, but it is definitely not a frequently mentioned problem. I did
not spot it in this directory: http://www.nopuppymills.com/directory.htm

A Net search did find mention of heart murmurs in Chow Chows, but entropion and other eye
diseases, joint dysplasia and skin ailments are the most common problems.

From: http://www.petstation.com/drbob-dog-...iseases.html#C

Adrenal sex hormone abnormalities
Bloat
Brachury
Short tails
Cataract
Cerebellar hypoplasia
Defective or incomplete development of the cerebellum.
Cleft palate
Median fissures due to non-closure of bones
Color dilution alopecia
Demodicosis
Displaced lacrimal puncta
Distichiasis
An abnormal row of eyelashes.
Elbow dysplasia
Elongated soft palate
Entropion
lateral canthus
Hip dysplasia
Deformed coxofemoral joints with clinical signs from none to hip lameness.
Radiographically there may be shallow acetabulum, flattened femoral head, subluxation and
secondary degenerative joint disease.
Hyposomatotropism
Hypothyroidism
Alopecia, thickening of the skin, hyperpigmentaion.
Slow regrowth of hair following clipping.
Slow healing of wounds.
Keratoconjunctivitis
Microphthalmia
Narrow palpebral fissure
Nystagmus
Oversized palpebral fissure
Pemphigus foliaceous
Persistent pupillary membrane
Redundant forehead skin
Retinal folds

Never, ever trust a hobby breeder, a.k.a. back yard breeder. Before I learned what a BYB
is, I bought Nightbear from one. He could barely walk by age seven. At the time of
purchase, I asked the BYB how good his hips were. She replied, "Well, I've never had any
complaints on any of my dogs." She had no idea what OFA means. I didn't know any better at
the time, but I learned my lesson. :-(

Any way, heart murmurs, in its many variations, in Chow Chows is neither unheard of nor
common.
Whatever it takes.