In article ,
wolfpuppy wrote:
My research shows that it is fairly equally distributed, and why wouldn't it
be? Are you implying that breeders of one particular breed are more apt to
be dishonest than another? That makes no sense.

Take a look at the actual stats. They're readily available
online at http://www.offa.org.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community.

On Sun, 5 Mar 2006 16:06:42 -0500, "wolfpuppy"
wrote:


"sighthounds & siberians" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 4 Mar 2006 14:07:15 -0500, "wolfpuppy"
wrote:


"Rocky" wrote in message
news:Fri977BC75ED2DF6australianshepherdca@roc ky-dog.com...
"wolfpuppy" said in rec.pets.dogs.health:

Hip dysphasia affects around 10% of all dogs across
the board and is generated by inbreeding, [...]

How so?

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Hip dysphasia is the condition when the socket of the hip is too shallow
for
the ball of the femur. When a dog is young, it is not as noticeable
because
the musculature is strong enough to keep the socket in place. As the dog
ages, and the muscles and tendons weaken and stretch, the ball end of the
femur will want to come out and this is what causes the severe pain.
There
isn't too much that can be done for this condition.

Hip dysphasia is caused by inbreeding, that is, breeding too close to the
blood. Breeding littermates, for example. This is a condition that
affects
all breeds across the board at about 10%. I found out this info years ago
when I wanted to educate myself on this condition, for I had been told for
so long that this was a trait associated with german shepherds primarily.
I've since learned that this is not so, but is fairly equally distributed
among all breeds. In other words, a disreputable breeder, instead of
introducing new stock into his dogs, will cheat and breed males and
females
that are too closely related to save a buck. This is a very good reason
for
checking out your breeder very carefully before purchasing.

There is actually no such thing as hip dysphasia. Dysplasia, yes.
And it's not *caused* by breeding to close to the blood, whatever that
means.

Mustang Sally

Oh, did I mispell it? Should it have been hip 'dysplasia'? Ok, I'll
give you that one. My spell checker did that to me--I will be taking it out
back and putting a round through its' head now. Bad spell checker. Bad.

Breeding too close to the blood was my way of saying breeding dogs that
are too closely related. Littermates, for example, or pups mating with
their parents. This is what vets say cause this condition, and that is what
that means.

Just saying I'm wrong is a gratuitous statement, and needs to be backed
by some authority.

I think that asserting that vets say breeding dogs that are too
closely related should be backed by some authority, because I've
certainly never heard or read a vet saying such a thing. Are you
saying that dogs that test OFA excellent, if they're too closely
related, will produce dogs with bad hips? Does breeding dogs that are
too closely related also cause hypothyroidism? Diabetes? Eye
problems? Epilepsy?

Mustang Sally

wolfpuppy wrote:

Not sure what part of my post you didn't understand. Hip dysphasia is a
result of inbreeding, that is, breeding dogs that are too closely related.

No. It's not. For one thing, it's spelled dysplasia. Doing a search on
that or even a cursory look at the OFA website (www.offa.org) would give
you reams of information about the causes of hip dysplasia. Inbreeding
is NOT a cause of dysplasia.

Now hip dysplasia is genetic. That is true. And it's also a
multi-genetic inherited disease in which the mode of inheritence is not
clearly understood. But it is found in inbred dogs, outcrossed dogs,
mixed breed dogs, purebred dogs, wolves, and even cats. And there are
many "inbred" lines with absolutely no hip dysplasia.

All inbreeding does is make an organism more homozygous. By inbreeding
properly, you can actually eliminate certain genetic diseases from
lines, which is why the Portuguese Water Dog has made huge strides in
eliminating HD even though it has a very small gene pool.


If you want to get into more detail than that, you will have to ask a
geneticist. If you are trying to pin me down by making me say that all
inbred pups will develop this condition, there is no way I could do that.
But if you want to avoid this condition, then I would say that by not
breeding dogs too closely related would be the way to go. To be absolutely
sure, you would want to have the parents hips x-rayed, since x-rays in too
young a dog wouldn't show anything.

You know, you really ought to think a bit before you spout off about
stuff you clearly have no understanding of. Avoiding "inbred" dogs will
not keep you from getting a dog with HD. HD occurs in all dogs, feral,
mix, pure, outcross, inbred. All dog breeds are inbred, that's what
makes them a breed. Yet clearly there is a difference between the
incidence of hip dysplasia in Bulldogs (ranked #1 with 73.6% dysplastic)
and in Italian Greyhounds (ranked #146 with NO HD found and 68.3%
Excellent). Oh and German Shepherds? 39 with 19% dysplastic.

wolfpuppy wrote:

"Melinda Shore" wrote in message
...

In article ,
Rocky wrote:

"wolfpuppy" said in rec.pets.dogs.health:

I've since learned that this is
not so, but is fairly equally distributed among all breeds.

Yup.

Either I'm misunderstanding what's being asserted or I think
you've made a think-o. I know you know that the incidence
of hip dysplasia isn't equally distributed among breeds.

"Wolfpuppy": check the OFA stats. Also, read "Control of
Canine Genetic Disease" by George Padgett.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community.


My research shows that it is fairly equally distributed, and why wouldn't it
be? Are you implying that breeders of one particular breed are more apt to
be dishonest than another? That makes no sense.


We're implying you need to do more research because you don't know what
you're talking about. HD is not evenly distributed between breeds. Some
breeds have markedly more HD within the breed than other. Inbreeding
does not cause HD.

We have had great results with Finish Line for Horses, Dogs, Cats. It's
a fluid action that contains so many of the helpful ingredients needed.
Our dog was suffering and we started the Finish Line and started her
swimming. As soon as she lost weight and toned up her supporting
muscles she was like a puppy again. You can find the Finish Line at any
pet store that also carries horse supplies or on the internet under
Finish Line - make sure you get the one for Horses, Dogs, and Cats - not
jut horses. Best wishes

"wolfpuppy" said in rec.pets.dogs.health:

Not sure what part of my post you didn't understand.

The part where I quoted you writing:
"But you haven't addressed my query as to your assertion that
hip dysplasia is *generated* by inbreeding."

Hip
dysphasia is a result of inbreeding, that is, breeding dogs
that are too closely related.

So, you're saying that breeding closely related dogs results in
HD. Yes? No? Maybe? I don't know?

If you want to get into more
detail than that, you will have to ask a geneticist.

I ask questions all the time. As a matter of fact, there are
geneticists who regularly contribute to this group; I very much
value the advice I've gotten about one of my dogs' genetic
condition.

If
you are trying to pin me down by making me say that all
inbred pups will develop this condition, there is no way I
could do that.

But didn't you already write that it did? In the post to which
I'm responding, no less. "Hip dysphasia is a result of
inbreeding, that is, breeding dogs that are too closely
related."

But if you want to avoid this condition,
then I would say that by not breeding dogs too closely
related would be the way to go.

Why not? What do you think would happen if I bred brother and
sister, both with excellent hips? (Am I repeating myself?)

To be absolutely sure, you
would want to have the parents hips x-rayed, since x-rays
in too young a dog wouldn't show anything.

Yup. And the grandparents, and the great grandparents.... It's
a polygenic disease.

Again, this points out the reason one should go to a
reputable breeder.

True, though one should start with a personal knowledge base if
one is concerned about specific attributes.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

We're implying you need to do more research because you don't know what
you're talking about. HD is not evenly distributed between breeds. Some
breeds have markedly more HD within the breed than other. Inbreeding
does not cause HD.

Right - inbreeding does not CAUSE HD - but it will sure make the presence of
any inherited weakness know exponentially if the wrong two are line-bred.


"Robin Nuttall" wrote in message
news:qOKOf.803628$x96.125090@attbi_s72...
wolfpuppy wrote:

"Melinda Shore" wrote in message
...

In article ,
Rocky wrote:

"wolfpuppy" said in rec.pets.dogs.health:

I've since learned that this is
not so, but is fairly equally distributed among all breeds.

Yup.

Either I'm misunderstanding what's being asserted or I think
you've made a think-o. I know you know that the incidence
of hip dysplasia isn't equally distributed among breeds.

"Wolfpuppy": check the OFA stats. Also, read "Control of
Canine Genetic Disease" by George Padgett.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community.


My research shows that it is fairly equally distributed, and why wouldn't
it be? Are you implying that breeders of one particular breed are more
apt to be dishonest than another? That makes no sense.
We're implying you need to do more research because you don't know what
you're talking about. HD is not evenly distributed between breeds. Some
breeds have markedly more HD within the breed than other. Inbreeding does
not cause HD.

ZPL wrote:
We're implying you need to do more research because you don't know what

you're talking about. HD is not evenly distributed between breeds. Some
breeds have markedly more HD within the breed than other. Inbreeding
does not cause HD.

Right - inbreeding does not CAUSE HD - but it will sure make the presence of
any inherited weakness know exponentially if the wrong two are line-bred.


Sure. But that's both a plus and a minus. Inbreeding helps "expose" weak
points in the pedigree. Inbreeding also sets type, color, size,
temperament, etc. Inbreeding is part and parcel of dog breeding. And
geneticists make no distinction between inbreeding and line breeding...

"wolfpuppy" wrote:
hip dysplasia
There isn't too much that can be done for this condition.

Not true.

Hip dysphasia is caused by inbreeding,

Not true.

...fairly equally distributed among all breeds.

Not true.

"wolfpuppy" wrote:
Not sure what part of my post you didn't understand. Hip dysphasia is
a result of inbreeding,

No, it isn't.

that is, breeding dogs that are too closely
related. If you want to get into more detail than that, you will have
to ask a geneticist.

I *am* a geneticist, but Robin N. pretty much covered the points I was
going to make.

If you are trying to pin me down by making me
say that all inbred pups will develop this condition, there is no way
I could do that. But if you want to avoid this condition, then I would
say that by not breeding dogs too closely related would be the way to
go.

Actually, breeding nondysplastic dogs is the way to go.