Okay now that I have a Min Pin, I've started to get interested in
Miniature Pinscher coat color genetics. In the AKC standard, there are 4
allowed colors. Two I understand completely, because they're the same as
dobermans--black with tan markings, brown (chocolate) with tan markings.
There are also blues and isabella (lilac) fawns with tan markings. There
are 3 colors I'm a bit unclear on.

Clear Red
Stag Red
Champagne

Clear Red I'm going to assume is some sort of yellow? This is an example
of a clear red:

http://www.showbreeders.com/~regatta...eWhenReady.jpg

Stag Red is red base coat with intermingled black hairs. My new boy is
stag red. The black hairs are solid from root to tip and occur mostly on
the sides of the neck and the "saddle" area. As you can see from
Zipper's picture in the sun, www.totaldobe.com/zipper.html, there are no
black hairs on his muzzle or any sort of black mask. His nose looks a
bit brown in this picture due to sun intensity, but it is black. You can
more clearly see the color patterning he

http://www.showbreeders.com/~regatta...AllAboutMe.jpg,
this is my boy's grandmother.

Finally, the color champagne that I can't even show you is apparently a
very light solid cream--some sort of dilute of the solid "red?"

I don't know whether Zipper's sire is red or stag red--I don't have a
photo of him. His dam is stag red. There were both stag red and solid
red puppies in the litter.

thanks in advance for insights!

Liisa Sarakontu wrote:
Robin Nuttall wrote in
news:lA0Nf.585556$084.149977@attbi_s22:


You have much more colors over there than we here in FCI do. Our Min Pin
(and German Pin) standards allow just "stag red" (which is actually most
often Ay sable) and black tanpoint. There is some variation in the amount
of dark shading in these "reds", and then there are very rare ee recessive
yellow (solid tan) Min Pins - and that's it. I have heard of blue,
chocolate and lilac tanpoints, they've got to be very rare as they are non-
standard here. I don't think that I've ever seen them in photos taken in
Finland. (Oh, there was that photo of brindle Min Pin too, but he was
hardly a purebred.)

Here's a page with some colors on it:

http://www.jagartsenclave.com/jmpc.html

Though for what it's worth, I think the second puppy that he's calling
clear read is actually fox red.



When sable dogs are pups, they nearly always show very telltale dark
shading in the middle of their backs and necks, on top of the tail and
perhaps on top of the head and at the edges of ears too. Most or even all
of this disappears when the dog grows into a "clear" sable, but the
whiskers stay nearly always at least partially black.

I didn't see these babies as newborns. I saw them at 4 months. And my
boy has a faint dorsal stripe, especially visible on the back of his
neck then fading into the darker back coat.

Min Pins do come in ee recessive yellow, too. When they are born, they are
solid bright tan, often clearly paler than typical sable pups and they
never show any black shading. When adult, they often turn darker and they
can be impossible to be told apart from normal clear sables - unless you
can look at their whiskers. They have never black but pale or tan whiskers.
Their noses are not always as deep black as the noses of sable dogs but
have clearly brownish or pinkish shade especially in the middle. Solid
flesh-colored or brownish nose is possible too, even when the dog is
genetically BB/Bb.

Hmmmm. Interesting. I *think* the clear red puppies I've seen have had
black whiskers, but they do not have any black hairs or black tipping.



Clear Red I'm going to assume is some sort of yellow? This is an example
of a clear red:
http://www.showbreeders.com/~regatta...eWhenReady.jpg



Zipper looks mostly like just shaded sable, but I can't say for sure. Most
probably this older bitch is a rather shaded sable too, but its pattern is
stronger and it might be a saddle patterned with very grizzled saddle as
well. There shouldn't be saddle in any Pinscher breed, but who knows...
I've never seen this shaded Pinscher with my own eyes, so I don't know.

I will say that in bright light, the darker color is clearly some sort
of saddle pattern but with very diffuse edges. Zipper also has much
lighter "wings" that extend from the back of the elbow almost to the
wither. The underlying hairs here are a very light yellow. There are
also yellowish hairs on either side of his neck, intermingled with a lot
of black so it stands out.

Anyway, on this side of the Atlantic "stag red" seems to mean any red, with
or without shading, and clearer dogs are preferred although mild shading is
ok too.

Did the "solid red" ones have black whiskers or black shading when babies?

I don't know.

And how dark the "stag reds" were at birth? I'm just trying to figure out
if you are seeing shaded sables + ee recessive yellows/reds, or perhaps
AyAy clear sables and Ayat shaded sables. Or sables and saddlebacks!

I'm betting, after this conversation, that I'm seeing AyAy clear sable
and Ayat shaded sable...

Robin Nuttall wrote in
news:3olNf.830003$xm3.807592@attbi_s21:

Here's a page with some colors on it:
http://www.jagartsenclave.com/jmpc.html
Though for what it's worth, I think the second puppy that he's calling
clear read is actually fox red.

"Fox red"? The dog in question looks very dark to me, and it is not ee, but
I can't make the pattern ot true color. Probably some kind of sable with
very dark phaeomelanin?

The photos of "champagnes" are too small for me to see them properly, but
they might be ee dogs. All the ee Min Pins I've seen this far (but just in
photos) have been much darker and redder than these, but in many breeds ee
dogs are always clearly paler than Ay sables.

"Champaign", "faun"? Are these alternative spellings for champagne and
fawn, or just typos? Those letter codes on the site you gave show that the
author hasn't bothered to read any real color genetics stuff but has for
some reason decided to invent his/her own gene names. Like "A" for sable
and "a" for tanpoint, "G" for white spotting locus and so on.

Hmmmm. Interesting. I *think* the clear red puppies I've seen have had
black whiskers, but they do not have any black hairs or black tipping.

Clear sables are (or at least should be) far more common than ee yellows,
so it is ok that you saw black whiskers. And in some breeds clear sables
actually don't show nearly any dark shading even as pups.

Zipper also has much
lighter "wings" that extend from the back of the elbow almost to the
wither.

That's normal (mild) countershading, and it is visible on about every dog
except solid blacks, browns, blues or whites. Some breeds (like Pins) have
been bred to show very little countershading and so they can be nearly
solid tan, but some breeds (like Shibas) have been bred to show maximum
amount of it and they show a rather clear pattern of tan and off-white.

I'm betting, after this conversation, that I'm seeing AyAy clear sable
and Ayat shaded sable...

That's the most probable explanation, and goes best with what is
"officially" known about color genetics of this breed.

Liisa