Robin Nuttall wrote in
news:3olNf.830003$xm3.807592@attbi_s21:

Here's a page with some colors on it:
http://www.jagartsenclave.com/jmpc.html
Though for what it's worth, I think the second puppy that he's calling
clear read is actually fox red.

"Fox red"? The dog in question looks very dark to me, and it is not ee, but
I can't make the pattern ot true color. Probably some kind of sable with
very dark phaeomelanin?

The photos of "champagnes" are too small for me to see them properly, but
they might be ee dogs. All the ee Min Pins I've seen this far (but just in
photos) have been much darker and redder than these, but in many breeds ee
dogs are always clearly paler than Ay sables.

"Champaign", "faun"? Are these alternative spellings for champagne and
fawn, or just typos? Those letter codes on the site you gave show that the
author hasn't bothered to read any real color genetics stuff but has for
some reason decided to invent his/her own gene names. Like "A" for sable
and "a" for tanpoint, "G" for white spotting locus and so on.

Hmmmm. Interesting. I *think* the clear red puppies I've seen have had
black whiskers, but they do not have any black hairs or black tipping.

Clear sables are (or at least should be) far more common than ee yellows,
so it is ok that you saw black whiskers. And in some breeds clear sables
actually don't show nearly any dark shading even as pups.

Zipper also has much
lighter "wings" that extend from the back of the elbow almost to the
wither.

That's normal (mild) countershading, and it is visible on about every dog
except solid blacks, browns, blues or whites. Some breeds (like Pins) have
been bred to show very little countershading and so they can be nearly
solid tan, but some breeds (like Shibas) have been bred to show maximum
amount of it and they show a rather clear pattern of tan and off-white.

I'm betting, after this conversation, that I'm seeing AyAy clear sable
and Ayat shaded sable...

That's the most probable explanation, and goes best with what is
"officially" known about color genetics of this breed.

Liisa