Hi there

My elderly dog was recently diagnosed with Cushings disease and has
developed secondary diabetes.

The cushings was diagnosed with an ACTH stim test and a high-dose
dexmethasone test, and is pituitary-dependant.

Her alk phos is high and climbing - was nearly 9000 in January and was
over 11000 a week ago (normal is 8-167) so I'm also concerned about
liver damage. ALT and cholesterol are also both high, but the rest of
her liver and CBC results were nice and normal.

Our vet wants to get the diabetes controlled before treating the
Cushings, but I'm afraid if we delay too long the diabetes may not be
reversible (as it often seens to be with cushings) and there may be
further damage from the high cortisol. We have been giving her
phosphatidylserine for about a month as a supplement, but it's hard to
tell if it's having any effect because of the diabetes symptoms.

We've increased her insulin from 7IU twice a day to 10IU twice a day
over the last couple of weeks, but we're still seeing her BG off the
scale every day or two, and I'm worried she'll go blind or develop other
more life-threatening problems with the high glucose if we can't get it
controlled soon (though anecdotally it seems we won't get it controlled
without treating the Cushings).

Has anyone experience of similar problems they could share?


thanks
Rachel
Murphy - 13.5yo LabX; 25kgs/55 pounds; IBD, Cushings, Diabetes
Elly - 6yo Newfoundland; 60kgs/130 pounds; Hooligan

"SupergoofNZ" wrote in message
...
My elderly dog was recently diagnosed with Cushings disease and has
developed secondary diabetes.

Our vet wants to get the diabetes controlled before treating the
Cushings, but I'm afraid if we delay too long the diabetes may not be
reversible

............I'd do two things - post this in alt.med.veterinary and sign up
for the Canine Cushings list at yahoo:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canine...utoimmunecare/

........This question has come up before and I sort of feel like you do on
it. Wonder if they could try Anipryl instead of Lysodren to see if some
control can be achieved. I don't see how the diabetes is going to be
controlled w/o addressing the Cushings first.

http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/Zwicker/
Evidence of insulin resistance was present in 85% of dogs with spontaneous
HAC in one study, as indicated by hyperinsulinemia with either normal or
elevated blood glucose.6 This resistance is thought to be due to the
hypercortisolemia either altering the binding of insulin at the receptor or
somehow altering the intracellular response to insulin.6 Regardless, the
insulin resistance will be corrected with treatment of the HAC, allowing for
better regulation of concurrent DM.

best of luck to you and your elderly pup
buglady
take out the dog before replying

Hi,
I have a mini schnauzer that is diabetic. His diabetes has been hard to
control.
My local Vet did regular glucose tests on him but they varied so much. She
hasn't been able to really get him regulated. He did lose his sight from the
diabetes. We had the catarats removed and he now can see fine.
After several months of trying to control his diabetes my Vet sent him to an
internist. The internist suggested that he might have Cushings. His liver
levels were slightly elevated. The internist did say that he wanted to
control the Cushings and that the diabetes should fall into place. He
suggested that we have the Cushings test done with our Vet. I chose not to
have him tested or treated because the treatment seemed a little harsh. Long
story short, his glucose tests still show that he's not regulated all that
well, but he is happy and his water consumption and urinating are not too
bad. I give him 15 IU of insulin 2 times a day. This is about the maximum
for his weight. He weighs about 26 pounds. He's 8 years old. Maybe your dog
isn't being given enough insulin . I give mine Humilin N. He was on Vetsulin
(the pet insulin)for a month or so, but he didn't respond any better. I have
just decided that since my little guy feels good, seems very happy and
content that I wouldn't put him through all the poking and prodding all the
time. I don't know how your dog is feeling but I really hating leaving mine
at the Vet for 8 hours so she could get a glucose curve on him. It's really
hard to deal with these things in an animal. They just can't tell you how
they feel. Good luck with your gal. I hope she does well.
Carol

"SupergoofNZ" wrote in message
...
Hi there

My elderly dog was recently diagnosed with Cushings disease and has
developed secondary diabetes.

The cushings was diagnosed with an ACTH stim test and a high-dose
dexmethasone test, and is pituitary-dependant.

Her alk phos is high and climbing - was nearly 9000 in January and was
over 11000 a week ago (normal is 8-167) so I'm also concerned about liver
damage. ALT and cholesterol are also both high, but the rest of her liver
and CBC results were nice and normal.

Our vet wants to get the diabetes controlled before treating the Cushings,
but I'm afraid if we delay too long the diabetes may not be reversible (as
it often seens to be with cushings) and there may be further damage from
the high cortisol. We have been giving her phosphatidylserine for about a
month as a supplement, but it's hard to tell if it's having any effect
because of the diabetes symptoms.

We've increased her insulin from 7IU twice a day to 10IU twice a day over
the last couple of weeks, but we're still seeing her BG off the scale
every day or two, and I'm worried she'll go blind or develop other more
life-threatening problems with the high glucose if we can't get it
controlled soon (though anecdotally it seems we won't get it controlled
without treating the Cushings).

Has anyone experience of similar problems they could share?


thanks
Rachel
Murphy - 13.5yo LabX; 25kgs/55 pounds; IBD, Cushings, Diabetes
Elly - 6yo Newfoundland; 60kgs/130 pounds; Hooligan

Thanks for replying Buglady. Sorry it's taken so long to acknowledge -
life just revolves around the dog at the moment!

buglady wrote:
"SupergoofNZ" wrote in message
...
My elderly dog was recently diagnosed with Cushings disease and has
developed secondary diabetes.

Our vet wants to get the diabetes controlled before treating the
Cushings, but I'm afraid if we delay too long the diabetes may not be
reversible

...........I'd do two things - post this in alt.med.veterinary and sign up
for the Canine Cushings list at yahoo:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canine...utoimmunecare/

I am in the second list already, just casting my net wide )
Will look into alt.met.veterinary to.


.......This question has come up before and I sort of feel like you do on
it. Wonder if they could try Anipryl instead of Lysodren to see if some
control can be achieved. I don't see how the diabetes is going to be
controlled w/o addressing the Cushings first.

[snip]

best of luck to you and your elderly pup


Thanks again. After pretty much hitting rock bottom we finally seem to
be seeing some improvement the last few days. My poor baby has had two
bladder infections and suspected 'uterine stump pyometra' in the last
couple of months.

We finally started her on anipryl two weeks ago today, and though we
weren't expecting to see anything for at least a month, the last few
days she's stopped drinking so much (it was getting up to around 15
litres a day, and 5 litres was just between dinner time and bedtime).
No panting fits and she actually had quite a good night last night,
without stomping around the house for most of it.

Best of all, her blood glucose is *finally* starting to come down!
Tonight it was the lowest it's been since her diagnosis, at 15.9mmol/l.
Prior to that she's been running anything from high 20s to off the
scale (over 33.3). Normal range is around 5 - 15mmol/l (according to
our vet, though I thought it was around 3 - 10).

Either way, it's a vast improvement. Who knows, perhaps she might not
need insulin at all in another month or two! We live in hope.

So we're cautiously optimistic - I do hope it's the anipryl that's
helping and it's not just a fluke.


cheers
Rachel

Carol L wrote:
Hi,
I have a mini schnauzer that is diabetic. His diabetes has been hard to
control.
My local Vet did regular glucose tests on him but they varied so much. She
hasn't been able to really get him regulated. He did lose his sight from the
diabetes. We had the catarats removed and he now can see fine.
After several months of trying to control his diabetes my Vet sent him to an
internist. The internist suggested that he might have Cushings. His liver
levels were slightly elevated. The internist did say that he wanted to
control the Cushings and that the diabetes should fall into place. He
suggested that we have the Cushings test done with our Vet. I chose not to
have him tested or treated because the treatment seemed a little harsh. Long
story short, his glucose tests still show that he's not regulated all that
well, but he is happy and his water consumption and urinating are not too
bad. I give him 15 IU of insulin 2 times a day. This is about the maximum
for his weight. He weighs about 26 pounds. He's 8 years old. Maybe your dog
isn't being given enough insulin . I give mine Humilin N. He was on Vetsulin
(the pet insulin)for a month or so, but he didn't respond any better. I have
just decided that since my little guy feels good, seems very happy and
content that I wouldn't put him through all the poking and prodding all the
time. I don't know how your dog is feeling but I really hating leaving mine
at the Vet for 8 hours so she could get a glucose curve on him. It's really
hard to deal with these things in an animal. They just can't tell you how
they feel. Good luck with your gal. I hope she does well.
Carol

Hi Carol, thanks for replying.

There are alternative treatments for Cushings that aren't at all harsh -
we've got Murphy on anipryl (selegiline or L-deprenyl) and the only
known side-effect is tummy troubles. It works by raising dopamine and
lowering cortisol and you judge its effectiveness by the symptoms
abating rather than with blood tests. There's no risk of overcorrecting
and causing addisons or worse.

There's also a supplement called phosphatidlyserine which is sometimes
very helpful - it has the same action as anipryl.

Please think about testing trying one of these gentle treatments on your
little guy. They aren't harsh like lysodren or even trilostane and can
give you much better diabetes control and extend his life.

Murphy's on 12IU of insulin twice a day and she's about 55 pounds. We
have an advantage blood glucose meter and test ourselves before meals,
by taking a drop of blood from inside her lip. If I want to do a curve
I can do it myself at home at the weekend. Poor Murphy's lip must get a
bit sore (I'm surprised she doesn't leak like a watering can when she
drinks!) but it's infinitely less stressful than a visit to the vet or
worse still, being left at the vet for tests.

If you read my other response to this thread you'll see we seem to have
had surprisingly quick results from the anipryl, much faster than we
expected. And amazingly no major tummy trouble - surprising since she's
ended up with diarrhoea when we tried milk thistle, SAM-e and cranberry
(the first two for her liver enzymes, the latter for chronic bladder
infections). So her gut seems super-sensitive at the moment too (she
also has IBD just to confuse the issue).

cheers
Rachel

"SupergoofNZ" wrote in message
...
We finally started her on anipryl two weeks ago today, and though we
weren't expecting to see anything for at least a month, the last few
days she's stopped drinking so much (it was getting up to around 15
litres a day, and 5 litres was just between dinner time and bedtime).
No panting fits and she actually had quite a good night last night,
without stomping around the house for most of it.

Best of all, her blood glucose is *finally* starting to come down!

..........That's great! Did you talk your vet into treating the Cushings in
conjunction with the diabetes? ;-)

buglady
take out the dog before replying

buglady wrote:
"SupergoofNZ" wrote in message

Best of all, her blood glucose is *finally* starting to come down!

.........That's great! Did you talk your vet into treating the Cushings in
conjunction with the diabetes? ;-)

Yep ... they wanted to wait a further month to try and get the diabetes
stabilised before treating the Cushings. It had already been 3 months
since her diagnosis and we didn't want to delay any longer, especially
knowing that chances are we couldn't control her BGs without treating
cushings anyway. I think they finally realised we weren't going to be
put off.

Not to mention 3 months of disturbed sleep for the whole household, with
Murphy stomping around the house all night long ... kinda makes you a
bit feisty. )


cheers
Rachel

"SupergoofNZ" wrote in message
...
buglady wrote:
Did you talk your vet into treating the Cushings in conjunction with the
diabetes? ;-)

Yep ... they wanted to wait a further month to try and get the diabetes
stabilised before treating the Cushings.
I think they finally realised we weren't going to be put off.

............Good, though it's kind of sad you had to wait on your vets. :-(

Not to mention 3 months of disturbed sleep for the whole household, with
Murphy stomping around the house all night long ... kinda makes you a bit
feisty. )

........oh yeah! Some people use these kinds of beds to help their Cushings'
dogs cool off. You may not need it any more though if Murphy's finally
stabilized: http://www.petstreetmall.com/Canine-Cooler-Pet-Bed.aspx

buglady
take out the dog before replying

buglady wrote:
"SupergoofNZ" wrote in message

Not to mention 3 months of disturbed sleep for the whole household, with
Murphy stomping around the house all night long ... kinda makes you a bit
feisty. )

.......oh yeah! Some people use these kinds of beds to help their Cushings'
dogs cool off. You may not need it any more though if Murphy's finally
stabilized: http://www.petstreetmall.com/Canine-Cooler-Pet-Bed.aspx

Ironically I was trying to get hold of one of those a few months ago
(summer downunder) but couldn't get one for love nor money - couldn't
find an online store that shipped to NZ (most don't even bother to reply
to the email enquiry).

After seeming to improve last week, her blood glucose has shot up again
in the last few days, and I think she's just starting to drink more
water again ( - but not drinking nearly as much as she was before.

However we increased her insulin again yesterday and today she was a bit
lower, so fingers crossed the anipryl will kick in properly before we
need to increase it again.

It's possible it was a combination of anipryl and phosphatidylserine
that was responsible, but because we were unable to get PS for a couple
of weeks perhaps we'll have to build it up again to see a benefit.

Or maybe she just needs a higher dose of anipryl. At least we haven't
had any panting fits, and she did really well when we took her for a
little walk yesterday (which could also be responsible for her BG being
a bit lower today). Though her back end is really weak and wobbly she
didn't appear to be overly tired or stumbling after a gentle half-hour
perambulation. Even managed to get up a steep, short slope all by herself.



cheers
Rachel