I've also been to alt.med.veterinary with this problem. Sorry to make
some of you read it twice.

Our 75 pound German Shepherd began having seizures four days ago,
probably due to contact with an unpunctured can of bug spray we found
on the yard. She was convulsing almost continuously until we brought
her into the vet where she got atropine and diazepam.

The first two days we gave her 1.5cc's to .75cc's of diazepam at the
onset of each seizure. She was having around eight each day, lasting
less than a minute each.

On the third day we stopped the diazepam and started giving her 60mg
phenobarbital twice and on the fourth day we bumped it up to 180 twice
a day. The third evening her seizures became more frequent but less
severe.

Up until now her appetite and disposition have been good, but today she
is hardly moving at all. She is having small seizures while remaining
upright, she's incredibly tense and she is terrified of everything.
She'll lurch away when approached. Even the sound of her own name
being spoken softly frightens her. I can't get close enough to check
her pulse, temp or pupils.

Is this an allergic reaction to the phenobarbital, a withdrawl from the
diazepam or a worsening of her original condition? The constant terror
and loss of appetite are the things that concern me.

said in rec.pets.dogs.health:

She was having around eight each day, lasting
less than a minute each.

This is how Rocky's seizures were early on, though his clusters
came in groups of three per 24 hours.

How old is your GSD?

Up until now her appetite and disposition have been good,
but today she is hardly moving at all. She is having small
seizures while remaining upright, she's incredibly tense
and she is terrified of everything. She'll lurch away when
approached. Even the sound of her own name being spoken
softly frightens her. I can't get close enough to check
her pulse, temp or pupils.

This is all very normal. Be exceedingly gentle with her during
and after her seizures. I found that rubbing Rocky's chest and
talking to him during the seizure helped in the recovery. Rocky
also is blind for a few minutes post ictal, adding to his
confusion.

Is this an allergic reaction to the phenobarbital, a
withdrawl from the diazepam or a worsening of her original
condition?

It's probably more to do with acclimating the drugs.
Phenobarbital is an effective drug, and your dog will need some
time to come to terms with it.

Rocky, for example, is a good agility dog yet is on 120 mg of PB
per day.

The constant terror and loss of appetite are
the things that concern me.

Yes. Obviously, you'll keep in close contact with your vet.
It's very scary situation a few of us have been through, so keep
in touch here, too.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Hey Matt,

She's just a little over two years old. At the moment I'm just hoping
Pup will be comfortable again soon, but I've been a little uneasy about
the prospect of her coming out of this without all of her faculties.
This terror phase of hers lasted all day but it seems to be kind of
subsiding now. One reason for this might be that I haven't been able
to get her to eat anything, including her next dose of PB. She lets me
touch her and she only jumps if I move too quickly.

I'm glad to hear Rocky can keep up the pace with the daily PB. The vet
more or less cut off our diazepam, which might not be all bad, but I
got the impression that they only expected to hear from me again if I
wanted them to come out to put her down. They did do blood work the
first day and ruled out all the easy stuff. They were surprised the
reaction to the bug spray was lasting this long, which also made them
suspect that it might be epilepsy.

Thanks for your response!

Scott

http://tinyurl.com/fz7jp - pup 15 days ago, enjoying one of her
favorite activities

If your vet left you with the impression not to call unless you were ready
to put her down then you need to find another vet.



"scottfick (at) gmail com" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hey Matt,

She's just a little over two years old. At the moment I'm just hoping
Pup will be comfortable again soon, but I've been a little uneasy about
the prospect of her coming out of this without all of her faculties.
This terror phase of hers lasted all day but it seems to be kind of
subsiding now. One reason for this might be that I haven't been able
to get her to eat anything, including her next dose of PB. She lets me
touch her and she only jumps if I move too quickly.

I'm glad to hear Rocky can keep up the pace with the daily PB. The vet
more or less cut off our diazepam, which might not be all bad, but I
got the impression that they only expected to hear from me again if I
wanted them to come out to put her down. They did do blood work the
first day and ruled out all the easy stuff. They were surprised the
reaction to the bug spray was lasting this long, which also made them
suspect that it might be epilepsy.

Thanks for your response!

Scott

http://tinyurl.com/fz7jp - pup 15 days ago, enjoying one of her
favorite activities

"scottfick (at) gmail com" said in
rec.pets.dogs.health:

She's just a little over two years old.

That age is within the range that idiopathic (aka, "unknown
causes" - probably genetic) epilepsy happens. Rocky was 2.5
years old. While it's still worth investigating secondary and
traumatic causes (like the bug spray), I'd start planning for a
lifelong situation.

At the moment I'm
just hoping Pup will be comfortable again soon, but I've
been a little uneasy about the prospect of her coming out
of this without all of her faculties.

I'd put money on her coming out of it with all her faculties.
Seizures can cause brain damage (as happened with one of Rocky's
litter brothers), but usually results from status (continuous)
seizing. Rocky is clingier and somewhat of a doofus because of
the drugs, but his "inner dog" remains unchanged.

This terror phase of
hers lasted all day but it seems to be kind of subsiding
now. One reason for this might be that I haven't been able
to get her to eat anything, including her next dose of PB.
She lets me touch her and she only jumps if I move too
quickly.

How is it going today?

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Today she's doing pretty well. She had some water, a handful of mild
seizures but she's out on the grass in the yard sniffing the air and
watching the birds. The terror thing has almost subsided. I'm a
little hesitant to give her the PB now since I'm afraid she'll relapse
back into that fearful state.

"scottfick (at) gmail com" said in
rec.pets.dogs.health:

I'm a
little hesitant to give her the PB now since I'm afraid
she'll relapse back into that fearful state.

If you've checked the links, you'll have read about an effect
called "kindling." I'm a big believer in using drugs to gain
control of epileptic seizures - and *then* using whatever means
available to reduce the dosage of, and the side effects of,
those drugs.

Also, I'm becoming less clear as to what you're calling the
"terror phase." Initially, I thought you were referring to
typical post-seizure disorientation. Now, I think you may be
referring to side-effects of the anti-epilepsy drugs.

Please, describe the "terror phase" and fearful state as
thoroughly as you can.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Today I had her out in the sun all afternoon, and she hadn't had any PB
for 16 hours. She was still a little out of sorts and common things
like cars going by would startle her but she was never really in that
end of the leash terrified state. She ate and drank some, and I gave
her another 60mg. Now she's hidden in a dark corner upstairs and is
totally unresponsive again. Yesterday she really didn't seem to
recognize anything and was behaving like a captured wild animal while
in my presence. When I watched her through the window she would sit
and stare in one direction unless there was some kind of sound. Then
she would react like she was being attacked.

I read that chronic exposure to PB increases the production of certain
enzymes in the liver that make it better at removing toxins, but I
suppose this is only a long term benefit. I'm thinking about shelving
the PB for the time being just to see what happens with her general
well-being.

wrote in message
oups.com...
HOWEDY matty,


I'll say it once more- if you want to pretend you know something about
behavior, fine, but you know nothing about medicine. Please confine your
drivel to a subject that won't lead people to make mistakes that kill
animals. After all, not everyone knows that you're a complete ****tard,
although I will say this particular post would make it impossible to miss.