Someone posted this on another forum, and I know that this is more than
likely a scam. But still. Pan's hips are bad, and if there is a decent
possibility that this thing will do some good....

http://www.vetcures.com/

I'm especially interested in what folks have to say about the ingredients.

Suja

"Suja" wrote in message
news:qnmdg.23761$ZW3.20331@dukeread04...

Someone posted this on another forum, and I know that this is more than
likely a scam.
.............I have a negative reaction to the word *scam*. I think most
chemotheraphy is a scam, but people rarely use that term because it comes
from the medical world. Somehow it is only applied to nutraceuticals. I
think probably it's like anything else, sometimes it may do some good,
sometimes not.

http://www.vetcures.com/

I'm especially interested in what folks have to say about the ingredients.

.............I don't like the approach on this website. I'm allergic to too
many exclamation points. g There's no doubt that ionic forms of a lot of
nutrients are the most useable to the body, but I wonder if it's possible to
shuffle them through the stomach - more appropriate to inject them directly
into the bloodstream. Largely it looks like an oral chelating product,
which results in cleaning up the body. May do some good, but I have my
doubts that it can rebuild joints. There are other oral chelating agents if
you want to give them a fling.

........If glucosamine, MSM and fish oils aren't doing anything, then I'd try
other stuff that's anti-inflammatory like yucca, or perhaps cetyl
myristolate. Reasons for limps are as varied as dogs, so it's hard to tell
what might help. There's other things you can use - more complete list at
www.dogaware.com Acupuncture and Adequan are also possiblities. Just an
aside - had any tick tests done?

buglady
take out the dog before replying

"Suja" wrote in
news:qnmdg.23761$ZW3.20331@dukeread04:

I'm especially interested in what folks have to say about the
ingredients.

Hey Suja, I took a look at the page briefly, and here are my comments as
I read it:

The guy who developped this product is a human physician. Humans are not
dogs. Drugs that work for humans may not work for dogs and vice-versa.
The intro also uses a lot of loaded words to try to make people feel
guilty about choosing pharmaceuticals over natural products.

Arthritis cannot be reversed nor can it be cured (from www.arthritis.ca).
There are natural fluctuations in the course of the disease that may
result in the artritis appear to be cured. (In humans)

The clinical study - Well, first of all the fact that over 6 months,
those that didn't take it showed no fluctuations in their symtoms I find
hard to believe. Also, how do you tell, on a scale from 1-10, what level
your dog is at? How were the dogs chosen? Were the levels of activity the
same? There are a lot of questions about the trial that make me put it
down to wishful thinking.

"It allows nutrients to intereact with one another, breaking them down
into the simplest ionic forms. This ultimately has a positive effect on
regenerating joint and tissue repair."

I call bullshit. So far, *no* biochemist, biologist or scientist has been
able to come up with anything that can come close the the effectiveness
of enzymes. And natural products don't work as well either. For him to
claim otherwise is a lie.

He also makes some interesting claims that are contradictory. First that
it is small and low molecular weight, and then that it detoxifies by
chelating. To chelate something, it needs to be (relatively) large, and
thus not a low molecular weight and not small. (Note, this all depends on
what molecular weight range he is talking about.)

"The properties in Arthrotol™ bind with the pollutants, which catalyzes
the breakdown of these toxic pollutants."

This sentance just makes no sense at all.

"Positive electrons"

Don't exist. Figment of his imagination. Electrons are negative. Always
have been, always will be. Fundamental part of their nature.

"Arthrotol™is a refiner and transporter of organic minerals and other
cell nutrients, it has the ability to turn bad guys in good guys by
chelating free radicals. Depending upon the chemical makeup of the free
radical, they can be incorporated into and become a part of life
sustaining bio-availiable nutrients. They may become an asset instead of
a liability. In the event that the chemical makeup of the free radical is
of no particular benefit, it is chelated, mobilized, and carried out of
the body as a waste product."

I am sorry, but a single compound cannot be a refiner, transporter and
enzyme. Nature does not work that way, it is too inefficient. For every
job, there is a highly specialized molecule that does that job and that
job alone. Different job, different molecule.

"Ionic Elements: Boron, Calcium, Carbon, Copper, Hydrogen, Iron, Lithium,
Manganese, Magnesium, Nitrogen, Oxygen, Phosphorus, Potassium, Silica,
Silver, Sodium, Sulfur, Titanium, and Zinc. "

As a chemist (not a biochemist, so my judgement may not be right) the
above is full of crap. I highly doubt that a single organic compound will
contain all of the above elements, plus all of the trace elemnts below.
The likelyhood that it does is about the same chance that Jerry has of
knowing anything about dog training.

"Trace Elements: Anitmony, Barium, Beryllium, Bismuth, Bromine, Cadmium,
Cerium, Cesium, Chloride, Chromium, Cobalt, Dysprosium, Erbium, Europium,
Fluoride, Gadolinium, Gallium, Germanium, Gold, Hafnium, Holmium, Indium,
Iodine, Iridium, Lanthanum, Lead, Lutetium, Molybdenum, Neodymium,
Nickel, Niobium, Osmium, Palladium, Platinum, Praseodymium, Rhenium,
Rhodium, Rubidium, Ruthenium, Samarium, Scandium, Selenium, Somium,
Strontium, Tantalium, Tellurium, Terbium, Thallium, Thorium, Thulium,
Tin, Tungsten, Uranium, Vanadium, Ytterbium, Yttrium, and Zirconium.

There is no doubt to the safety and effectiveness of each of these
individual ingredients. The secret of Arthrotol™'s success comes from the
proprietary process behind creating Arthrotol™."

Again, this is complete and utter bullshit. He is just pulling things off
of the periodic table. Some of them are radioactive, some are extremely
toxic.

All in all, I think that this is complete and utter bullshit. Right up
there with DDR.




--
Marcel and Moogli
http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/

"Suja" composed these thoughts and posted them
news:_9Kdg.23841$ZW3.7802@dukeread04:


"Marcel Beaudoin" wrote in message

All in all, I think that this is complete and utter bullshit. Right
up there with DDR.

Hey, who let the science guy in?

Thanks, Marcel. I needed that. I honestly should know better than to
even consider snake oil; after all, I do have some biochemistry in my
background somewhere. I'm going to find myself that Whole Dog
Journal, and look into the stuff that Robin posted about.
The Whole Dog Journal is also not based on science, but instead based on
the opinion of a magazine editor with a magazine to sell. She has never
presented any credentials except that of owning pet dogs.
Those opinions are also often based on VooDoo
Be careful of your sources.

"Marcel Beaudoin" wrote in message

All in all, I think that this is complete and utter bullshit. Right up
there with DDR.

Hey, who let the science guy in?

Thanks, Marcel. I needed that. I honestly should know better than to even
consider snake oil; after all, I do have some biochemistry in my background
somewhere. I'm going to find myself that Whole Dog Journal, and look into
the stuff that Robin posted about.

BTW, I think you should consider raising some of these points with the
purveyor of this particular load of bull and see what (if anything) he has
to say.

Suja

On Fri, 26 May 2006 16:17:09 -0500, diddy wrote:

"Suja" composed these thoughts and posted them
news:_9Kdg.23841$ZW3.7802@dukeread04:


"Marcel Beaudoin" wrote in message

All in all, I think that this is complete and utter bullshit. Right
up there with DDR.

Hey, who let the science guy in?

Thanks, Marcel. I needed that. I honestly should know better than to
even consider snake oil; after all, I do have some biochemistry in my
background somewhere. I'm going to find myself that Whole Dog
Journal, and look into the stuff that Robin posted about.
The Whole Dog Journal is also not based on science, but instead based on
the opinion of a magazine editor with a magazine to sell. She has never
presented any credentials except that of owning pet dogs.
Those opinions are also often based on VooDoo
Be careful of your sources.

There was some criticism from subscribers of Whole Dog Journal's
endorsement of Dog Gone Pain and the very unscientific 'study' that
was reported in Whole Dog Journal. Even Dr. Susan Wynn, a holistic
veterinarian, said that veterinarians cannot recommend Dog Gone Pain
(though she personally believes it works) because, among other
reasons, some of the ingredients are secret.

Mustang Sally

sighthounds & siberians wrote:
On Fri, 26 May 2006 16:17:09 -0500, diddy wrote:


There was some criticism from subscribers of Whole Dog Journal's
endorsement of Dog Gone Pain and the very unscientific 'study' that
was reported in Whole Dog Journal. Even Dr. Susan Wynn, a holistic
veterinarian, said that veterinarians cannot recommend Dog Gone Pain
(though she personally believes it works) because, among other
reasons, some of the ingredients are secret.

Agreed. It was an interesting study but with 14 dogs, hardly a
significant one. One thing my acupuncturist wanted to know was the
concentrations of the herbs--of which she says boswelia is by far the
most effective.

However, I can say it works (at least for Viva), and I can say it with
confidence. I really do see a dramatic change in Viva's attitude and
ability to get around. She's brighter and happier. She limps far less,
is more willing to stretch her back legs, and is giving Cala everything
she can handle on our runs where she had taken to mostly walking and
sniffing. I also see far less pain after her runs. No limping or
stiffness the next day.

One side effect I forgot to mention this morning. Initially Viva was
more incontinent. She's been periodically incontinent for years, but the
first week or so of DGP she was very incontinent. That seems to have
settled down.

On Fri, 26 May 2006 22:08:58 GMT, Robin Nuttall
wrote:

sighthounds & siberians wrote:
On Fri, 26 May 2006 16:17:09 -0500, diddy wrote:


There was some criticism from subscribers of Whole Dog Journal's
endorsement of Dog Gone Pain and the very unscientific 'study' that
was reported in Whole Dog Journal. Even Dr. Susan Wynn, a holistic
veterinarian, said that veterinarians cannot recommend Dog Gone Pain
(though she personally believes it works) because, among other
reasons, some of the ingredients are secret.

Agreed. It was an interesting study but with 14 dogs, hardly a
significant one. One thing my acupuncturist wanted to know was the
concentrations of the herbs--of which she says boswelia is by far the
most effective.

However, I can say it works (at least for Viva), and I can say it with
confidence. I really do see a dramatic change in Viva's attitude and
ability to get around. She's brighter and happier. She limps far less,
is more willing to stretch her back legs, and is giving Cala everything
she can handle on our runs where she had taken to mostly walking and
sniffing. I also see far less pain after her runs. No limping or
stiffness the next day.

Right. I'm not saying it doesn't work or discouraging anyone from
trying it; I actually bought a bottle myself, having several geriatric
dogs. Though speaking for myself alone, proprietary formulas in
products like this don't inspire confidence.

One side effect I forgot to mention this morning. Initially Viva was
more incontinent. She's been periodically incontinent for years, but the
first week or so of DGP she was very incontinent. That seems to have
settled down.

That's interesting. We have about all the incontinence around here
that I can handle, even with Matty gone.

Mustang Sally

sighthounds & siberians wrote:
On Fri, 26 May 2006 22:08:58 GMT, Robin Nuttall
wrote:


One side effect I forgot to mention this morning. Initially Viva was
more incontinent. She's been periodically incontinent for years, but the
first week or so of DGP she was very incontinent. That seems to have
settled down.


That's interesting. We have about all the incontinence around here
that I can handle, even with Matty gone.

Sherry (acupunture DVM) thinks it's the Cayenne. The formulation is a
"warming" formulation which is one reason why it works. It increases
circulation. Viva's feet were always cool, now they are quite warm. And
again, the incontinence increase was for about a week, then it went away
(thank goodness!)

"Robin Nuttall" wrote in message
news:NJOdg.4623$No1.3636@attbi_s71...
the
first week or so of DGP she was very incontinent. That seems to have
settled down.

Sherry (acupunture DVM) thinks it's the Cayenne.

........probably the celery seed, which is a diuretic. Herbs for Pets
authors Mary-Wulff Tilford and Gregory Tilford mention it should not be
given to an animal with a pre-existing kidney problem

The formulation is a
"warming" formulation which is one reason why it works. It increases
circulation. Viva's feet were always cool, now they are quite warm. And
again, the incontinence increase was for about a week, then it went away
(thank goodness!)

......Cayenne, as your acupuncturist says, is a warming herb.
From Herbs for Pets, Mary-Wulff Tilford and Gregory Tilford, 1999, p. 94

*Capsicum is reliable in its activity as a peripheral vasodilator. Used
internally, it acts to warm the body by quickly dilating small capillaries
and increasing circulation to the skin and extremeties. Because of this
activity, capsicum is commonly used in the systemic treatment of impaired
blood circulation, and because it triggers the outward movement of blood
throughout the body it is often added as a *carrier* for the active
components of other herbs. It's effect in this capacity can be quite
dramatic, especially when it is combined with herbs that have an affinity
toward the skin or extremities. By itself, capsicum is useful for opening
capillary occlusions that are the by-product of a crushing injury, and it is
considered a specific remedy for chronically deficient peripheral
circulation - situations characterized by continuously cold paws hands, or
feet. Capsicum is also regarded as a circulatory stimulant for the lungs
and may be useful for improving pulmonary efficiency in animals with
hypostatic pneumonia or other conditions where edema or other factors are
interfering with proper blood circulation in pulmonary tissues.*

The warnings include not feeding to an animal with a sensitive digestive
tract or inflammatory digestive or urinary system disease unless you have a
full understanding of all underlying conditions. Capsicum doesn't cause
irritation to the digestive tract when fed in moderate doses to animals with
no digestive problems.

........so one wonders whether it is the presence of the cayenne as a carrier
that is primarily responsible for the effect of this supplement.

......I'll just also mention that Herbs for Pets states that feverfew
(Tanacetum parthenium) should not be given internally for more than a week.
The standard use of this drug is largely as an external rinse for fleas. I
don't know the basis for this statement, but the authors are people I trust
for good, safe information.

For a good listing of arthritis remedies
http://www.dogaware.com/arthritis.html

.........DGP is being marketed by American BioSciences, Inc. and if you look
at the info at their website under Research Information all you're given is
a newsletter by the Australian vet who tells you it is *safe*, but cautions
that as this product can alter the absorption and uptake of some other
drugs, and that you should discuss it with your vet first. Personally I've
not found too many vets who are familiar with herbs and how can they even
judge what may happen when part of the formula is not revealed?
http://www.americanbiosciences.com/research.asp

..........I'm glad you're having success with it, but personally I think it's
highly irresponsible to market a product with unmentioned herbs. Herbs are
not innocuous and there may be instances when an animal should not have this
product due to pre-existing conditions. One also needs to know the history
of use of an herb with animals.

buglady
take out the dog before replying