OK, here goes...
I have a 4 year old Akita/Malamute mix. He's the best dog ever. 110
pounds, loves people, dogs, kids, cats, everything. We adopted him
from a shelter when he was about a year old. A few months of having
him with us he developed a cough. It lasted a little longer than we
thought it should so we took him to the vet. They say Kennel Cough, so
we treat him for it, and it seems to kinda work. A few months later
it's back. Same thing...vet...treatment...better. A few months
later....same thing. So one day we take him to a long hike/trail on a
lake. He jumps into the water, has a ball. A day later he's got a
cough and a runny nose. I'm thinking that the water is so cold around
here year round that maybe he just got a cold. The cough gets worse,
the sinus discharge gets UNREAL. The poor dog is VERY ill, mucus
pouring from his nose 24/7. He can't sleep, barely eats, he's
miserable. My wife and I didn't get more than 4-5 hours of sleep in a
night for about a month because of his wheezing, coughing, snorting,
sneezing. He was really bad off and this lasts over a MONTH. An entire
month of my dog being horribly ill. In that period of time we took him
to a FEW vets. Second opinions, that sort of thing. None of them
really had a clear cut answer for what was wrong with our big guy.
He's had a few fecals, xrays of his head/sinus, tracheal wash, blood
work (a few times). We even had him checked for heartworm even though
it really doesn't exsist around here. His blood was checked for fungi
infection, his mucus was tested twice. He's been on steriods (helped a
little?), every antibacterial/antibiotic/antiviral known to man,
acupuncture, chinese herbal medicine, some of it helped a little, some
not at all. A few months ago we took him to an allergist (700 bucks,
yay!) and they found him to have reactions to things that we kinda
expected....molds, grasses, dustmites. We went ahead and had the
medicines made up and he's been getting injections for about 3 months.
He was also put on Atopica (because he's always pawed at his mouth a
little) and it MAYBE slowed his coughing...it DID stop his pawing, but
it made him sick...cutting the dose in half still made him sick, so the
doc had us stop it about 1 1/2 months ago. He seemed to be better
since starting the allergy shots. About two months into it, he's
caughing very very little...no nasal discharge. He seems about 95%
healthy. About 2 weeks ago we took him to the beach. We live about a
mile from salt water so we go there with him all the time, but he hadnt
been this summer in about 2 months. Upon returning from the
beach...same day...he's caughing and has a runny nose. My wife and I
are like "Oh crap" not this again. Sure enough, he's back to being
VERY VERY ill. Right now he's laying at my feet gasping for air though
his mouth cause his nose is completely full of brownish clear mucus.
He's not really slept in 3-4 days. The vet (I called two of his vets)
put him on an antihistamine. It MAY be helping a little?
Anyway....I'm really really tired of my completely awesome dog being
sick. He's seen (I think) 5 different vets now, had 20 different meds,
had shots, pills, needles, vaporizers, YOU NAME IT. We've even tried
taking him OFF meds to see if they are killing his immune system and
keeping him sick. We've taken away every food allergen we can think
of, spend around 3 grand in vet bills, hundreds on herbs and special
foods, but basically, I'd sell my freakin house, car, life, whatever to
make my boy feel better for good. We have no clue what's wrong with
him. The only similarities in the illnesses is the trips to the water.
One salt, one fresh, different times of year. Goose poop in his
sinus? Pneumonia? Sinusitus? Fungal? Anyway, we have another dog,
goes same places, sleeps same place...no illness. We have no clue so
if anyone can tell us to try something else or check this or
that...that'd be great. Maybe someone has experienced something
similar and figured something out. Thanks for reading all this.
Here's my big pup...
http://web.mac.com/redshifted/iWeb/S...moo,%20WA.html
Thanks again,
Drew

"Yourpetlovesyou" wrote in message
oups.com...
OK, here goes...
I have a 4 year old Akita/Malamute mix.
They say Kennel Cough, so we treat him for it, and it seems to kinda work.
A few months later
it's back. Same thing...vet...treatment...better.

...........What did they treat with and how long was the treatment?

the sinus discharge gets UNREAL. The poor dog is VERY ill, mucus
pouring from his nose 24/7. He can't sleep, barely eats, he's
miserable. My wife and I didn't get more than 4-5 hours of sleep in a
night for about a
He's had a few fecals, xrays of his head/sinus, tracheal wash, blood
work (a few times). We even had him checked for heartworm even though
it really doesn't exsist around here. His blood was checked for fungi
infection, his mucus was tested twice. He's been on steriods (helped a
little?), every antibacterial/antibiotic/antiviral known to man,
acupuncture, chinese herbal medicine, some of it helped a little, some
not at all.

............Did they tell you what were they testing the mucus for?

About 2 weeks ago we took him to the beach
Upon returning from the beach...same day...he's caughing and has a runny
nose
Right now he's laying at my feet gasping for air though his mouth cause his
nose is completely full of brownish clear mucus. He's not really slept in
3-4 days.

.........So when they x-rayed the head did they find any kind of structural
abnormalities? One of the sites mentioined a protruding tooth root into a
sinus cavity, but I don't know how they could have missed this. Is this all
centered in his head and throat, no lung or upper respiratory involvment?
I'm assuming that they x-rayed the lungs also at some point? Did they
always look normal?

............I went to the Respiratory section of the Merck Vet Manual online
and out of curiosity looked at Nasal Mites first. Not that your dog has
nasal mites, I just wanted to look at the symptoms. (Though apparently
nasal mites are common in Colorado:
http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB...00/PR00197.htm - any
idea where theis dog came from originally?) I was also curious if the nasal
mites hated water and went nuts if the dog inadvertently snorted some
water - a question I don't have an answer for yet. They mention rhinoscopy
and nasal flushing as part of the diagnostic procedures. Were either of
these ever done? I would think if this problem were centered in the
sinuses, that they might have done them. Tracheal washes wouldn't cut it if
it was only in the sinuses. Tracheal washes don't always find what's
present either. At he bottom of the page you can click on Rhinitis and
Sinusitis, but I'd also read most of the other stuff in this section.
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in.../bc/121603.htm

.......I'm in FL and we have red tides. Red tides give people respiratory
problems even if they don't get in the water. I do wonder if there's
something in the water that is affecting him - algae, etc, that exacerbates
a problem only with contact. Have you walked him on the beach (without
getting in the water) and had no problems? Is this the first time he'd been
in the water since the last time he was sick?

........Also when you went vet to vet, did you take all test results from
former vets with you? If not, your first step is getting the records from
all the vets who treated your dog so you have a complete record. For vets
you no longer wish to use, this should include their clinical notes. If
you're considering going to a Univ. Vet school clinic, I'd get all notes
and tests from all vets. X-rays can also be borrowed. If they won't loan
them to you to take to someone else, have them send it to the vet you'll be
seeing.

I got the following links by Googling Rhinoscopy dog. I'd also Google
Sinusitis dog and Nasal mites dog.
http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proce...ID=6527&O=Gene
ric
http://dspace.library.cornell.edu/bi...004+Taylor.pdf

I don't think they've done enough to rule out Aspergillosis.
One is on Aspergillosis - Sinoscopy and Rhinoscopy, the other compares
efficacy of X-ray, MRI and CT in diagnosing Aspergillosis:
You should be able to find these JAVMA articles in the Univ. lib or they're
10 bucks apiece online:
http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs...sessionid=icVg
YlWVdF9hW8SYYX?cookieSet=1&journalCode=javma
http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs...03?journalCode
=javma

These two articles on Rhinoscopy and anatomy of a dog nose cost 15 bucks
each to view in entirety - or if you are near a big U. you might be able to
dig them up:
http://inpractice.bvapublications.co...tract/28/4/170
http://inpractice.bvapublications.co...tract/28/5/238

..........I'd also check online for similar problems in people exposed to
water specifically for your area. This may be something that dogs don't get
very often, but people do. The more reading you do, the better off you'll
be. You could also think about more expensive testing, like MRI or CT, if
it seems warranted.

The only similarities in the illnesses is the trips to the water.
One salt, one fresh, different times of year. Goose poop in his
sinus? Pneumonia? Sinusitus? Fungal?

.........I keep thinking that the reaction to swimming in water is a key to
diagnosis, but I don't know. It could be that the chronic sinus/nasal
condition has eroded the bones in the area and when water gets in the nose,
perhaps it goes right up into the frontal sinuses.

http://web.mac.com/redshifted/iWeb/S...moo,%20WA.html

.........He certainly is a handsome pup. I just don't know what to tell you
about the utter discomfort your dog is in now. Does your dog act the same
day and night? Or is it worse at night when he's laying down? You might
try putting a pillow under his head. If no one has suggested a rhinoscopy
or CT/MRI, or even mentioned Aspergillosis, I don't think I could stand to
listen to my dog go through this again. I think I'd be calling up the
emergency dept of the nearest Big U Vet school in your area and be getting
in the car.

........Best of luck to you and your pup and please post back.

buglady
take out the dog before replying

buglady wrote:
"Yourpetlovesyou" wrote in message
oups.com...
OK, here goes...
I have a 4 year old Akita/Malamute mix.
They say Kennel Cough, so we treat him for it, and it seems to kinda work.
A few months later
it's back. Same thing...vet...treatment...better.

..........What did they treat with and how long was the treatment?

///////////Cephalexin. Did nothing. Days/weeks depending on how long
the cough lasted. Whether the drug killed the cough or his own immune
system, beats me.


the sinus discharge gets UNREAL. The poor dog is VERY ill, mucus
pouring from his nose 24/7. He can't sleep, barely eats, he's
miserable. My wife and I didn't get more than 4-5 hours of sleep in a
night for about a
He's had a few fecals, xrays of his head/sinus, tracheal wash, blood
work (a few times). We even had him checked for heartworm even though
it really doesn't exsist around here. His blood was checked for fungi
infection, his mucus was tested twice. He's been on steriods (helped a
little?), every antibacterial/antibiotic/antiviral known to man,
acupuncture, chinese herbal medicine, some of it helped a little, some
not at all.

...........Did they tell you what were they testing the mucus for?

///////////Pretty much everything. i checked his mountain of paperwork
yesterday and they tested for fungii, bac, you name it. Found nothing
really out of range. He was put on ceph, did nothing, then baytril,
did nothing. Actually seemed to make him worse. We assumed allergies
and the meds killed his immune system and made him worse? Stopped the
meds, got him on accupuncture and chinese herbs and he started getting
better. Coincidence?


About 2 weeks ago we took him to the beach
Upon returning from the beach...same day...he's caughing and has a runny
nose
Right now he's laying at my feet gasping for air though his mouth cause his
nose is completely full of brownish clear mucus. He's not really slept in
3-4 days.

........So when they x-rayed the head did they find any kind of structural
abnormalities? One of the sites mentioined a protruding tooth root into a
sinus cavity, but I don't know how they could have missed this. Is this all
centered in his head and throat, no lung or upper respiratory involvment?
I'm assuming that they x-rayed the lungs also at some point? Did they
always look normal?

////////No abnormalities. It actually started in the lungs....long
history of coughing, but then the nose...related? maybe, probably? We
just dont know. Still looks like allergies.



...........I went to the Respiratory section of the Merck Vet Manual online
and out of curiosity looked at Nasal Mites first. Not that your dog has
nasal mites, I just wanted to look at the symptoms. (Though apparently
nasal mites are common in Colorado:
http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB...00/PR00197.htm - any
idea where theis dog came from originally?) I was also curious if the nasal
mites hated water and went nuts if the dog inadvertently snorted some
water - a question I don't have an answer for yet. They mention rhinoscopy
and nasal flushing as part of the diagnostic procedures. Were either of
these ever done? I would think if this problem were centered in the
sinuses, that they might have done them. Tracheal washes wouldn't cut it if
it was only in the sinuses. Tracheal washes don't always find what's
present either. At he bottom of the page you can click on Rhinitis and
Sinusitis, but I'd also read most of the other stuff in this section.
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in.../bc/121603.htm

////////checking your links....thank you!


......I'm in FL and we have red tides. Red tides give people respiratory
problems even if they don't get in the water. I do wonder if there's
something in the water that is affecting him - algae, etc, that exacerbates
a problem only with contact. Have you walked him on the beach (without
getting in the water) and had no problems? Is this the first time he'd been
in the water since the last time he was sick?

///////////////We have red tides, but he goes to the beach 50 times in
the summer and is fine. We just dont know if the water trips are a
cause or coinc. He goes there all the time and is fine. This last
time he hadnt been in months, and was healthy as ever...then to the
beach we go and he's sick for weeks. But again, he was fine after 50
other trips, and one of the trips that SEEMED to make him sick was
fresh water, and i gotta assume we have an entirly different set of bac
and fungus is salt vs. fresh. however, the bac in bird poop would be
in both? And we have geese in both for sure. We have checked
humidity, weather, pollen seasons, etc and there is no rhyme or reason.


.......Also when you went vet to vet, did you take all test results from
former vets with you? If not, your first step is getting the records from
all the vets who treated your dog so you have a complete record. For vets
you no longer wish to use, this should include their clinical notes. If
you're considering going to a Univ. Vet school clinic, I'd get all notes
and tests from all vets. X-rays can also be borrowed. If they won't loan
them to you to take to someone else, have them send it to the vet you'll be
seeing.

//////////Oh yeah...we carry a freakin book of scans, xrays, med lists,
test results from vet to vet.



I got the following links by Googling Rhinoscopy dog. I'd also Google
Sinusitis dog and Nasal mites dog.
http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proce...ID=6527&O=Gene
ric
http://dspace.library.cornell.edu/bi...004+Taylor.pdf

I don't think they've done enough to rule out Aspergillosis.
One is on Aspergillosis - Sinoscopy and Rhinoscopy, the other compares
efficacy of X-ray, MRI and CT in diagnosing Aspergillosis:
You should be able to find these JAVMA articles in the Univ. lib or they're
10 bucks apiece online:
http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs...sessionid=icVg
YlWVdF9hW8SYYX?cookieSet=1&journalCode=javma
http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs...03?journalCode
=javma

///////////I thought about those as well....I'l check more into it.


These two articles on Rhinoscopy and anatomy of a dog nose cost 15 bucks
each to view in entirety - or if you are near a big U. you might be able to
dig them up:
http://inpractice.bvapublications.co...tract/28/4/170
http://inpractice.bvapublications.co...tract/28/5/238


//////////Cool, will check these out.


.........I'd also check online for similar problems in people exposed to
water specifically for your area. This may be something that dogs don't get
very often, but people do. The more reading you do, the better off you'll
be. You could also think about more expensive testing, like MRI or CT, if
it seems warranted.

///////////Good thinking...will check the people problems.


The only similarities in the illnesses is the trips to the water.
One salt, one fresh, different times of year. Goose poop in his
sinus? Pneumonia? Sinusitus? Fungal?

........I keep thinking that the reaction to swimming in water is a key to
diagnosis, but I don't know. It could be that the chronic sinus/nasal
condition has eroded the bones in the area and when water gets in the nose,
perhaps it goes right up into the frontal sinuses.


////////That's kinda what I think too, but who knows.


........He certainly is a handsome pup. I just don't know what to tell you
about the utter discomfort your dog is in now. Does your dog act the same
day and night? Or is it worse at night when he's laying down? You might
try putting a pillow under his head. If no one has suggested a rhinoscopy
or CT/MRI, or even mentioned Aspergillosis, I don't think I could stand to
listen to my dog go through this again. I think I'd be calling up the
emergency dept of the nearest Big U Vet school in your area and be getting
in the car.

//////////That's next for sure. So far with this bout of illness we
have done NOTHING, and it's worked better than anything we have done in
the past, which also points to allergies I guess. He's nowhere near as
bad as he was when the vets tried 20 different things to help him.
It's either the meds were dragging him down, or the allergy shots he's
been on for a few months (they can take a year or more to really kick
in) are working in some way.

.......Best of luck to you and your pup and please post back.

/////////////Thanks for your post. It helped. -Drew

buglady
take out the dog before replying

"Yourpetlovesyou" wrote in message
oups.com...
He was put on ceph, did nothing, then baytril,
did nothing. Actually seemed to make him worse. We assumed allergies
and the meds killed his immune system and made him worse?

...........Keflex (cephalexin) is an antibiotic generally used for
Staph/Strep in lung infections. It may have side effects on kidney/liver.
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/cephalex_ad.htm
.........Baytril is used for infections, and primarily used when Pseudomonas
is present.
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=553

.......So their choices weren't inappropriate if it was a bacterial
infection. Long-term antibiotic use does wipe out the friendly flora in the
gut. Good bacteria actually help strengthen the mucosal lining of the gut.
No diarrhea problems?

Stopped the
meds, got him on accupuncture and chinese herbs and he started getting
better. Coincidence?

.........I'm curious as to what the acupuncture vet thought. Did he/she
suggest probiotics? Vitamin C also has anti-histamine like effects.

////////No abnormalities. It actually started in the lungs....long
history of coughing, but then the nose...related?

.............You can cough from stuff running down the back of the throat.
Did they say his lungs looked/sounded funky? The problem was definitely IN
the lungs? This dog has never had a fever with these episodes? It just
seems to me that the clear mucous pouring out of his nose is from the
sinuses, not his lungs. You know how some colds cause this in humans? It's
how you end up with a sore nose, from trying to continually mop up the
watery stream coming out your nose.

///////////////We have red tides, but he goes to the beach 50 times in
the summer and is fine.

........If this is not the first time he's been in the water since the other
time he was sick, then it probably is a coincidence.

.. We have checked
humidity, weather, pollen seasons, etc and there is no rhyme or reason.

.........sounds like you've covered the bases with environment! One more
question though - in the past year has your dog had any vaccinations?

.........this site may be useful for further reading on Aspergillosis:
http://www.aspergillus.org.uk/indexh...index.php~main

Aspergillus - Fungus of the Month may give you a few needed laughs:
http://botit.botany.wisc.edu/toms_fungi/feb97.html

So far with this bout of illness we
have done NOTHING, and it's worked better than anything we have done in
the past, which also points to allergies I guess.

...........well, not necessarily. Steroids should make allergy problems
better, but from some reading I was doing the other day, may make a fungus
worse. I think also, since this was a shelter dog, and you're in an area
that has a lot of incoming people, one needs to think outside the box and
consider maladies which don't normally occur in your area, as you don't know
where this dog came from.

buglady
take out the dog before replying