I have a new cocker spaniel pup. He is 4 months old. We got him from a pet
store and is happy and healthy. Problem is that I can not get this dog to
house train. I can't have a peeing and pooping dog in my home. I am not
littering my home with newspaper either. I have owned ten plus dogs, since
they were pups, and have never encountered this type of resistance from any
dog. I don't yell, scold, etc. i already know that cockers are a sensitive
breed. I encourage him and tell him how good he is when he goes outside and
he loves the praise... But he still thinks he can drop trow and pee or poop
whenever and wherever he wants.

Another problem is leash training. I almost have to carry this little guy
around. He does not like to walk on a leash, at times. I find myself
walking then almost having to drag him before he will even attempt to move.

I hate to give up on this little guy, but it is getting taxing- and I am not
paying anyone twenty bucks for a book, ecourse, etc. I have already spent a
small fortune on a pure breed, because they are so gentle with kids- I have
a three year old and a 6 year old and they all get along just fine.

-Steve

"Steve Sprague" said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

I have a new cocker spaniel pup. He is 4 months old. We
got him from a pet store and is happy and healthy. Problem
is that I can not get this dog to house train. I can't have
a peeing and pooping dog in my home. I am not littering my
home with newspaper either. I have owned ten plus dogs,
since they were pups, and have never encountered this type
of resistance from any dog.

Is this the first time you've owned a pet store dog, though?
This 4 month old dog has learned to go where he lives because
he's been penned up for about 3 of those months. At this
point, traditional housetraining methods have to be
disregarded. Crate training probably won't work because your
dog has grown used to pooping in confined areas.

I don't yell, scold, etc. i already know that cockers are a
sensitive breed. I encourage him and tell him how good he
is when he goes outside and he loves the praise... But he
still thinks he can drop trow and pee or poop whenever and
wherever he wants.

You've got the encouragement down, but you're going to have to
go further back than step 1. Not only will you have to treat
this young dog as a fresh puppy, but you're going to have to
supervise much more than you normally would. Tether him to
you, crate when this is not practical. Take him outside on a
very short and fixed schedule, even at night. If he poops in
his crate right away we'll have to figure something else out.

Another problem is leash training. I almost have to carry
this little guy around. He does not like to walk on a
leash, at times. I find myself walking then almost having
to drag him before he will even attempt to move.

Start by hooking a short light leash to him while he's inside.

I hate to give up on this little guy, but it is getting
taxing- and I am not paying anyone twenty bucks for a book,
ecourse, etc.

Still, I'm going to recommend Ian Dunbar's $6 Housetraining
pamphlet:
http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB185

I have already spent a small fortune on a
pure breed, because they are so gentle with kids- I have
a three year old and a 6 year old and they all get along
just fine.

Nosy me: Did you buy him from a chain pet store? How much?

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 01:07:49 GMT, "Steve Sprague"
, clicked their heels and said:

I have a new cocker spaniel pup. He is 4 months old. We got him from a pet
store and is happy and healthy.

What prompted you to go that route? Do you know about puppy mills?

Problem is that I can not get this dog to
house train.

Not unusual for pet store puppies. They don't have a choice but to
eliminate where they sleep, so being "dirty" is not something that
bothers them anymore.

I can't have a peeing and pooping dog in my home. I am not
littering my home with newspaper either. I encourage him and tell him how good he is when he goes outside and
he loves the praise... But he still thinks he can drop trow and pee or poop
whenever and wherever he wants.

Do you have him on a feeding schedule? How often do you take him out?
Are you waiting for him to give you a signal or are you taking him
when he wakes, after eating, and at regular intervals?

Another problem is leash training. I almost have to carry this little guy
around. He does not like to walk on a leash, at times. I find myself
walking then almost having to drag him before he will even attempt to move.

Do you have a yard? Letting him drag the leash, inside and out, can
help him get used to it.

I hate to give up on this little guy, but it is getting taxing- and I am not
paying anyone twenty bucks for a book, ecourse, etc.

How about training classes? Guess those are out too? Guess what -
you still need to have this guy neutered, health visits, HW
preventative, etc. Dogs cost money, not just the initial purchase
price.

I have already spent a
small fortune on a pure breed, because they are so gentle with kids- I have
a three year old and a 6 year old and they all get along just fine.

You could have spent less and gotten a more stable dog, from a
responsible breeder. I don't trust the majority of pet store cockers
with a 10' pole. I hope that all interactions between the children
and puppy are very immediately supervised.

I;d recommend some books, but you're apparently not interested. Do
you have a library card?

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

Steve Sprague wrote:
I encourage him and tell him how good he is when he goes outside and
he loves the praise...

Good! That's exactly what you should be doing. Too many people try
to housebreak their dogs by just opening the door and letting them
outside. They don't seem to understand that they need to go outside
*with* the dog, so that they can praise him for appropriate behavior.

But he still thinks he can drop trow and pee or poop
whenever and wherever he wants.

The cardinal rule of housebreaking is to not allow the dog to have
accidents in the first place, because every accident you let him
have will undermine any progress you've made. Watch him like a
hawk. Tethering him to you is a good idea. Usually, it's a good
idea to crate a dog when you cannot watch him, but since you
purchased a pet store dog, he's learned that it's okay to relieve
himself in his crate. Tough luck, there, I'm afraid.

I hate to give up on this little guy, but it is getting taxing- and I am not
paying anyone twenty bucks for a book, ecourse, etc.

That's unfortunate. The purchase price of a dog--if you go that
route--will be the least of your expenses. It strikes me as foolish
to pay so much for an animal that you do not have enough money left
over to properly care for it. And, training it so that it is an
enjoyable member of your family is part of what I would consider to
be proper care.

I have already spent a
small fortune on a pure breed, because they are so gentle with kids-

There is nothing magical about pure bred dogs, or the amount of
money you spend on them, that makes them automatically gentle with
kids. If it were me, and I had kids to consider, I would have gone
to a responsible breeder or rescue. That way, I would know for
certain that the dog's temperament had been carefully evaluated. At
a pet shop, you have no such guarantee. In fact, about the only
guarantee you have is that no care whatsoever was given to producing
a dog with a good, solid temperament. Responsible breeders and
rescues will likely have dogs for drastically less money than a pet
shop, too, so you'd have money left over for things like training.

--
Shelly (Warning: see label for details)
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

HOWEDY Steve,

Steve Sprague wrote:
I have a new cocker spaniel pup. He is 4 months old. We got him from a pet
store and is happy and healthy. Problem is that I can not get this dog to
house train. I can't have a peeing and pooping dog in my home. I am not
littering my home with newspaper either.

Here's what you came lookin for:

"The Koehler Method of Dog Training"
Howell Book House, 1996"

Koehler On Correcting The Housebreaking Backslider.

"If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will
continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression
can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard
spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by
the mess he's made so you can come back at twenty
minute intervals and punish him again for the same
thing. (Dogs are REALLY stupid. J.H.)

In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog,
as well as the house, if you really pour it on him."

"Housebreaking Problems:

"The Koehler Method of Dog Training"
Howell Book House, 1996"

Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to
relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how
often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog
may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped
with a collar and piece of line so he can't avoid
correction.

When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to
the place of his error, and hold his head close enough
so that he associates his error with the punishment.
Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or
switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper.

It is important to your future relationship that you
do not rush at him and start swinging before you get
hold of him.

When he's been spanked, take him outside. Chances are,
if you are careful in your feeding and close
observation, you will not have to do much punishing.
Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost
house-broken and then force him to commit an error by
not providing an opportunity to go outside is very
unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier.

The same general techniques of housebreaking apply to
grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house.

For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and
then backslides, the method of correction differs
somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the
"revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by
messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed.

The first step of correction is to confine the dog
closely in a part of the house when you go away, so
that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The
fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof
that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you
no other course than to punish him sufficiently
to convince him that the satisfaction of his
wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the
punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will
continue to mess in the house.

An indelible impression can sometimes be made
by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration,
then leaving him tied by the mess he's made so you
can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish
him again for the same thing.

In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment.

It will be better for your dog, as well as the house,
if you really pour it on him.

"Handsome Jack Morrison"
wrote in
message
...
On 26 Jul 2003 22:14:29 GMT,
(DogStar716)
wrote:

Never mind dogman

You too? Some folks just never learn.

Uh huh

One of the signs of mental illness is to say "Uh
huh" a lot.

PS: If the "trainer" you were talking about isn't
on this list, he (or she) is NOT an approved
Koehler trainer, no matter how loud you scream
otherwise.

May I laugh again? LOL! One doesn't need to be on
a list to use Koehlers methods or teach his
methods.

Let me be among the first (apparently) to tell you
that not every trainer who uses a leash is a
*Koehler* trainer.

Sheesh.

This person may call herself a Koehler trainer, but
if she's hanging 12 week old puppies, she's about as
far from a Koehler trainer as a dog trainer can
possibly be.

Again, this is just your IGNORANCE showing.

I can call myself a devout Christian, but if I'm not
adhering to the doctrine, I'm something else.

http://www.koehlerdogtraining.com/patoflearn.html
Sorry, the very first sentences make me aware that
whoever wrote it knows nothing about PR based
training:

"Amidst the current (and politically correct) trend
in Positive Reinforcement Only training systems"

You cannot use PR only.

Au contraire. Many, many posters to r.p.d.b. (and
many other places as well) *claim* that they use
nothing but R. You know, the PPers.

And they do it quite loudly, too.

Surely you aren't blind (and deaf), as well as
ignorant?

Those are hard handicaps to overcome, Dogstar.

And if you knew anything about PR BASED training,
you would realize that. It's not all cookies and
babytalk.

There is no stronger supporter of R than Handsome
Jack Morrison, but I also use every behavioral tool
in my bag, including R-, P, and P-, because I know
that even R has its limits.

You'd know that too, if you didn't have your head in
the sand.

But that seems to be the battle cry of the
Koehler-ites.

The Koehlerites have no battle cry.

They have behaviorism on their side, and that's more
than enough.

I don't need instruction on how to give my dogs a
proper leash correction as I do not rely on a leash
to control or teach my dog.

That may or may not be suitable for your needs, but
it's not suitable for the majority of dog owners,
especially since the advent of leash laws.

Besides, after just a few weeks of proper Koehler
training, Koehler dogs likewise are no longer in
need of a leash.

That you apparently don't know that, once again
shows me just how ignorant of anything to do with
Koehler you are.

My last two dogs have been trained offleash right
from the start, using rewards for what I like, and
nothing for what I don't like.

Good for you, and if that level of training is good
enough for you, fine. But it's not good enough for
many of the rest of us.

Again, I'm not saying Koehler doesn't work.

I really have no idea what you're saying anymore,
because you apparently know so damn little about
Koehler and behavioral principles in general that
it's hard to have an informed discussion with you.

PS: It boggles my mind at how stupid you must be to
keep denying that those certain harsh methods are
only for LAST RESORT situations, intended only to
SAVE A DOG'S LIFE, even after I've repeatedly given
you direct *quotes* from Koehler's book saying just
that. It's like you don't even care how stupid
people think you are, or how devious you are, etc.
That can't help your cause any. You'd think that
you'd at least want to *appear* to be honest, even
if you're not. -- Handsome Jack Morrison *gently
remove the detonator to reply via e-mail

"Handsome Jack Morrison"
wrote in
message
...
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:52:18 -0400, "Krishur"
wrote:

Good books huh?

Absolutely. Some are, in fact, classics.

Which idea was your favorite, the one where they
tell you to alpha roll a "dominant" dog,

There's nothing inherently wrong with rolling a dog
(i.e., it *can* and *does* work in *some*
situations). Unfortunately, most people either do it
incorrectly, do it at the wrong time, etc.

or where they tell you that you didn't hit him hard
enough if he doesn't yelp or approaches you within
5 minutes of his punishment?

If physical discipline is deemed necessary (after
careful evaluation), it's much more cruel not to get
it over with quickly than it is to do it
incrementally and half-heartedly, which usually only
invites the need for even more discipline.

Maybe you liked when they recommend these beatings
for housebreaking accidents, chewing/destructive
behavior, stealing, trying to get on your bed
at night and dog on dog aggression.

At no time do the Monks *ever* advocate beating a
dog. A swat on the rump or a check to the chin does
*not* constitute a "beating."

I'm sorry if you don't agree.

And each of those behavior "problems" needs to be
looked at in its proper context.

A quote from the Monks:

"We repeat, these situations may merit physical
discipline. Since no book can pretend to analyze
every individual dog and situation, we feel
obligated to emphasize from the outset that
discipline is never an arbitrary training
technique to be applied to each and every dog for
all offenses. We do, however, believe that physical
and verbal discipline can be an effective technique.
The best policy if you experience any of the above
problems is to consult a qualified trainer or
veterinarian for evaluation of your individual
situation....

"If discipline is decided upon as a training
technique, it should be the proper technique. We
feel we have developed several methods that depend
less on violent physical force than timing, a flair
for drama, and the element of surprise.
We feel an obligation, as responsible trainers, to
map out
these methods, rather than simply skip the topic
because it is unpleasant. Dog owners want to know
what to do."

In other words, physical discipline is reserved for
those serious, special occasions when other methods
have failed.

For example, they do not recommend using physical
discipline for *routine* housebreaking chores --
only on those rare occasions when an already
reliably housebroken dog is (after careful
evaluation) deemed to be soiling the house on
purpose, backsliding, etc.

I'll give you an actual example. Years ago, an
adult dog was brought to me as an *incurable*
house-soiler. It was either get the dog reliably
housetrained or the dog was going on a one way trip
to the pound. Being the kind, compassionate trainer
that I am, I was prepared to do whatever it took to
get this dog house-trained and save his life.

After several weeks of more or less traditional
training, and to poor result, I brought out the big
guns -- physical and verbal discipline. Whenever the
dog soiled the house (no, you don't even have to
catch him in the act), I immediately (but very
calmly) tossed a leash on his collar, dragged him to
the scene of the crime, and (using a large
chair as a prop) tethered him to the leg of the
chair, with his nose about two inches away from the
poop. After a couple of swats on the rump, some
loud vocalizing, and a wait of about 20 minutes, I'd
release the dog and then ignore him for a while. I
had to repeat this process *three* times, I think --
and the house-soiling miraculously stopped. The dog
went home to enjoy a long and contented life with
his original owners, and I got to feel good about
myself.

So, yes, the Monk's books are good ones. Even for
novices.

Yup, that's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

-- Handsome Jack Morrison *gently remove the
detonator to reply via e-mail