Tonight I took Muttley to his first night of obedience training. I had
thought he would do better, but the prospect of 20 or so dogs and people,
and an array of irresistable smells, made him hard to control. After
struggling for a while with his "choker" chain collar, we tried a "pinch"
collar. He seemed to respond better with that, but still he was easily
distracted. I'm sure the prongs did not really hurt him, and probably would
do less damage than a tightly pulled choke collar, which often caused him
to gasp as he struggled against it.

It's really his choice, after all, to struggle uncomfortably or allow me to
follow him (mostly) where he wants to go on a loose leash. I would not want
to cause him any extreme pain or damage, but he has a very tough muscular
neck and a very willful disposition, and he needs to know when he needs to
obey my commands, for his own good. It is not too much unlike Army and
Marines boot camp, which can seem very harsh (and sometimes does exceed
reasonable limits), but the end result is (usually) a well trained and
effective member of a team with extraordinary capability.

I find it hard to be harsh with Muttley. When he is not distracted, he
seems to listen well to even soft spoken commands (at times almost
suggestions). Perhaps he does not fear me as he would someone who was a
very strong disciplinarian, but in a way I also admire his strong spirit of
independence, hopefully also coupled with respect and affection for me.

This evening, upon returning from the lessons, Photon jumped onto the hood
of the car, and apparently did not see Muttley riding shotgun. He saw her,
of course, and he tensed up and did not seem to want to leave the car
(where usually he would crawl over me to get out). When he finally came
out, somehow his leash became unhooked from his collar, and he ran into the
woods where Photon had retreated only moments before. Fearing the worst,
and hoping he would not run into the road, I called and whistled for him.
Soon I saw him looking at something on the ground, and he came past me when
I called, and then went up the steps on the porch. His first order of
business was to devour what was left of Photon's food, but then he
willingly allowed me to refasten the leash and let him in the house. After
feeding him, I went out, called Photon to the porch, and fed and petted her
briefly while Muttley watched.

It's hard to say what Muttley would do if Photon would allow him near
enough for real physical interaction. I think she has enough wild smarts
that she would play it safe and not allow that to happen. I think he would
be OK as long as she did not run. He seems OK with smaller dogs (well, most
dogs are smaller than he is), but I don't know if a cat invokes other
reactions. At least it seems like Photon is doing OK now with the whole
world outside of the house as her domain, and Muttley is King of the house
and outside to the extent of his tether.

I will do some more work with Muttley using the small prong collar, and I
may try a larger one which may provide better control. It may just prove
necessary to use such a fearsome contraption on my dog because he is so
literally and figuratively headstrong. Maybe once he gets my attention, he
will not need such strong correction. I will certainly still make sure his
attitude toward me is one more of respect and affection, rather than fear.
I think his overall lack of aggressiveness, and general calmness, show that
he is not overly stressed, but fairly well adjusted. I hope he/we can make
good progress over the next several weeks.

Paul

On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 01:00:25 -0400, "Paul E. Schoen"
, clicked their heels and said:


I will do some more work with Muttley using the small prong collar, and I
may try a larger one which may provide better control.

The small links generally offer more "oomph", believe it or not.

It may just prove
necessary to use such a fearsome contraption on my dog because he is so
literally and figuratively headstrong.

Get over the fearsome stuff.

I will certainly still make sure his
attitude toward me is one more of respect and affection, rather than fear.

Pinch collars and training (asking for something and following
through) have nothing to do with fear. If you're under that
impression, we need to change that. Being a strong leader doesn't
mean putting the fear of god into the dog.

I think his overall lack of aggressiveness, and general calmness, show that
he is not overly stressed, but fairly well adjusted. I hope he/we can make
good progress over the next several weeks.

I anticipate coming next week - how has the "sit on it" been going?

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

"Janet B" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 01:00:25 -0400, "Paul E. Schoen"
, clicked their heels and said:


I will do some more work with Muttley using the small prong collar, and I
may try a larger one which may provide better control.

The small links generally offer more "oomph", believe it or not.

When he was very distracted or intent on going somewhere, he pretty much
ignored the pinch collar and was mostly restrained by the choker chain and
my brute force. The pinch collar also came loose at one point, so I think a
larger, stronger version may be better. I'll get one and see how it works,
and then we can decide.

It may just prove
necessary to use such a fearsome contraption on my dog because he is so
literally and figuratively headstrong.

Get over the fearsome stuff.

I will certainly still make sure his
attitude toward me is one more of respect and affection, rather than
fear.

Pinch collars and training (asking for something and following
through) have nothing to do with fear. If you're under that
impression, we need to change that. Being a strong leader doesn't
mean putting the fear of god into the dog.

Fear may not be the right word. It is probably more of an expectation of an
unpleasant correction when a command is not obeyed quickly, and praise when
it is. Right now, however, it seems that he is just too distracted by what
he wants to do, and not much concerned by my attempts at correction.

I think his overall lack of aggressiveness, and general calmness, show
that
he is not overly stressed, but fairly well adjusted. I hope he/we can
make
good progress over the next several weeks.

I anticipate coming next week - how has the "sit on it" been going?

At home, Muttley is more relaxed, and I did a "sit-on-it", outside, for
more than half an hour while I read a magazine, and he just sat there or
laid down quietly. Fortunately there were no major distractions like
squirrels, deer, or the cat. He usually does not require much attention
when indoors, except when he is hungry or needs to go out.

I need to work more on heeling, especially. In general, I think he needs to
pay more attention to me, and ignore distractions.

Paul

Paul E. Schoen wrote:
Tonight I took Muttley to his first night of obedience training. I had
thought he would do better, but the prospect of 20 or so dogs and people,
and an array of irresistable smells, made him hard to control. After
struggling for a while with his "choker" chain collar, we tried a "pinch"
collar. He seemed to respond better with that, but still he was easily
distracted. I'm sure the prongs did not really hurt him, and probably would
do less damage than a tightly pulled choke collar, which often caused him
to gasp as he struggled against it.

It's the first night of class and 20 dogs is a big class! He isn't
going to be perfectly well behaved the first night, if he was you
wouldn't need to be there. Instead of struggling with him, work with
him, not against him. In my classes the first thing we do with dogs is
the name game. You say your dogs name (once) and get him to look at you
(without corrections), jump up and down, clap your hands, squeak a toy
and the instance he looks at you say yes and toss him a treat. Doesn't
take more then a minute or so for most dogs to be staring at you.


It's really his choice, after all, to struggle uncomfortably or allow me to
follow him (mostly) where he wants to go on a loose leash. I would not want
to cause him any extreme pain or damage, but he has a very tough muscular
neck and a very willful disposition, and he needs to know when he needs to
obey my commands, for his own good. It is not too much unlike Army and
Marines boot camp, which can seem very harsh (and sometimes does exceed
reasonable limits), but the end result is (usually) a well trained and
effective member of a team with extraordinary capability.

Yes, he does need to learn to obey your commands, but he has to learn
them first and he's not going to be proficient at them at the first
class. Don't expect miracles here. Make it rewarding to go with you, to
follow you, to be with you, to pay attention to you and he will start
paying attention to you.

I find it hard to be harsh with Muttley. When he is not distracted, he
seems to listen well to even soft spoken commands (at times almost
suggestions). Perhaps he does not fear me as he would someone who was a
very strong disciplinarian, but in a way I also admire his strong spirit of
independence, hopefully also coupled with respect and affection for me.

He shouldn't have to fear you, but respect you. And that will come with
time and more training. Working with distractions is hard, but it's
something you have work through. And simply correcting him over and
over again in the beginning stages of classes isn't going to help much.
Be a leader, not a dictator. Teach the dog, don't just correct the dog
and get frustrated because in the face of 20 dogs he is having trouble.
Upping the corrections in these early stages, imo, isn't really helping
much.

Lauralyn

"Agility" wrote in message
oups.com...
Paul E. Schoen wrote:
Tonight I took Muttley to his first night of obedience training. I had
thought he would do better, but the prospect of 20 or so dogs and
people,
and an array of irresistable smells, made him hard to control. After
struggling for a while with his "choker" chain collar, we tried a
"pinch"
collar. He seemed to respond better with that, but still he was easily
distracted. I'm sure the prongs did not really hurt him, and probably
would
do less damage than a tightly pulled choke collar, which often caused
him
to gasp as he struggled against it.

It's the first night of class and 20 dogs is a big class! He isn't
going to be perfectly well behaved the first night, if he was you
wouldn't need to be there. Instead of struggling with him, work with
him, not against him. In my classes the first thing we do with dogs is
the name game. You say your dogs name (once) and get him to look at you
(without corrections), jump up and down, clap your hands, squeak a toy
and the instance he looks at you say yes and toss him a treat. Doesn't
take more then a minute or so for most dogs to be staring at you.

That seems like a good idea. He certainly responds to his name here at home
and in other less distracting situations. He also knows and usually
responds to the commands "sit" and "heel". However, at the obedience class,
he needed to be physically restrained so he would not disturb the other
dogs and people. Maybe a period of socialization at the beginning might be
helpful, to allow the dogs to meet each other and get used to their scents.
It is also difficult when the class is outdoors at the SPCA where there are
lots of other scents to investigate. I think it will be better with a
properly sized pinch prong collar. My first try with it here at home seemed
to work well, and he did not pull nearly as hard, so there should be less
chance of damage, and he may be motivated to pay more attention to me.

It's really his choice, after all, to struggle uncomfortably or allow me
to
follow him (mostly) where he wants to go on a loose leash. I would not
want
to cause him any extreme pain or damage, but he has a very tough
muscular
neck and a very willful disposition, and he needs to know when he needs
to
obey my commands, for his own good. It is not too much unlike Army and
Marines boot camp, which can seem very harsh (and sometimes does exceed
reasonable limits), but the end result is (usually) a well trained and
effective member of a team with extraordinary capability.

Yes, he does need to learn to obey your commands, but he has to learn
them first and he's not going to be proficient at them at the first
class. Don't expect miracles here. Make it rewarding to go with you, to
follow you, to be with you, to pay attention to you and he will start
paying attention to you.

He seems to enjoy being with me and going for walks or rides, but in
general he is rather aloof and independent. He likes to be petted and
enjoys some roughhouse play, but usually he is content to just relax when
he is indoors or sitting by my side outdoors. When he goes for a walk, he
is intent on following his nose, and is rather indifferent to me petting
him or talking to him. Riding in the car he is happy to sit in the
passenger seat and poke his nose out the window, and sometimes he just
curls up there or on the floor. When I go to bed, he likes to snuggle next
to me for a while, but then prefers to sleep on his dog bed, either
upstairs near me, or downstairs. If I sleep too long, he will jump into bed
and let me know he needs to go out or needs food.

I find it hard to be harsh with Muttley. When he is not distracted, he
seems to listen well to even soft spoken commands (at times almost
suggestions). Perhaps he does not fear me as he would someone who was a
very strong disciplinarian, but in a way I also admire his strong spirit
of
independence, hopefully also coupled with respect and affection for me.

He shouldn't have to fear you, but respect you. And that will come with
time and more training. Working with distractions is hard, but it's
something you have work through. And simply correcting him over and
over again in the beginning stages of classes isn't going to help much.
Be a leader, not a dictator. Teach the dog, don't just correct the dog
and get frustrated because in the face of 20 dogs he is having trouble.
Upping the corrections in these early stages, imo, isn't really helping
much.

Lauralyn

I try to be reasonable in my corrections, but I have also heard that it is
important to make sure the dog does as instructed, with a single command,
and promptly. When he is constantly struggling to go every which way, about
all I can do is pull tightly on his choker collar held closely, and then he
is just struggling to breathe. Sharp tugs did not seem to work. The new
large prong collar really seems to be effective, and I hope to work with
him in the next couple of days before his next class. It was frustrating to
need every bit of my strength to restrain him, but I had no choice. Now I
have seen some real improvement, with more responsive control, and he
hardly seemed to pull at all. I think he knows that this collar will be
uncomfortable if he resists too much, or perhaps it is just that it is a
new sensation. Eventually I hope he will be easier to control without need
for such appliances.

Thanks for your helpful input.

Paul

On 16 Sep 2006 20:39:53 -0700, "Agility" , clicked
their heels and said:

It's the first night of class and 20 dogs is a big class!

Not 20. I believe it's 14, with 2 instructors and a lot of physical
space.



--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

"Janet B" wrote in message
...
On 16 Sep 2006 20:39:53 -0700, "Agility" , clicked
their heels and said:

It's the first night of class and 20 dogs is a big class!

Not 20. I believe it's 14, with 2 instructors and a lot of physical
space.

Janet is probably quite correct. It just seemed like 20 or so while I was
struggling to keep Muttley under control. I look forward to making more
progress tomorrow evening. Thank you, Janet, for trying to help.

Paul