"Thomas Silverstein" wrote in message
newsan.2006.10.01.00.10.16.633682@Thomas-Silverstein...
Could someone point me to some helpful information.

So much of what I come across seems to have underlying ideology and
secondary motivation. I would love some unbiased third party type
comparison reviews.


Protein is protein. Carbs are carbs. There are simple and complex carbs.
They all break down into APT for energy with the byproducts of water, CO2,
waste, and fat (waist). And, fat is fat. Fiber is indigestible and,
therefore, not really considered a nutrient. Then there is water. Vitamins
are classified as either fat or water soluble They, like minerals are
usually protein helpers of some sort. If you have enough, you have enough.
More is not better. The rest is dispensed of in the urine, breath, feces,
sweat, or stored in the fat for later use.

There's your first class in basic nutrition.

Quiz:

Q1: Where do we (and other mammals) get calories?

A. Only from protein, carbohydrates, and fat (please don't give your dog
beer, but alcohol metabolizes like a fat).

Q2: How many vitamins and minerals do I (and other mammals) need?

You need only enough vitamins and minerals to function, and not more.

Q3: Are there any other nutients?

Yes, water. However, arguably, you need some fiber to aid in defecation.

Everything else is superfluous.

Dog Chow or Sam's Choice works as well as the high-falouting stuff. Just
pick one and don't keep changing it all the time, you and your dog will be
much happier.

Protein is protein. Carbs are carbs. There are simple and complex carbs.
They all break down into APT for energy with the byproducts of water, CO2,
waste, and fat (waist). And, fat is fat. Fiber is indigestible and,
therefore, not really considered a nutrient. Then there is water. Vitamins
are classified as either fat or water soluble They, like minerals are
usually protein helpers of some sort. If you have enough, you have enough.
More is not better. The rest is dispensed of in the urine, breath, feces,
sweat, or stored in the fat for later use.

There's your first class in basic nutrition.

And a bad one at that. Protein is not protein. It's well established
that different protein sources provide different rates of breakdown. And
fat is also not fat. There are saturated fats, unsaturated fats,
trans-fats, natural fats, chemical fats. All have different properties
and metabolize differently in the body. Ditto carbs.

Whoever this yahoo is, don't listen to him. No, Old Roy is NOT the same
as the super premium foods. Among the extremely common differences you
will see are coat structure, length, thickness, and gloss, skin
suppleness, pad quality, thickness (cracked versus thick and smooth),
general condition, energy, endurance, amount needed to be fed (i.e.,
better quality food feed less and get better result), stool quantity and
quality, and overall health.

If all food was the same, there would be no difference between a diet of
quarter pounders and a diet of equal protein gotten from lean meats,
fish, and chicken.

"Robin Nuttall" wrote in message
news:qDWTg.219740$1i1.192079@attbi_s72...

Protein is protein. Carbs are carbs. There are simple and complex
carbs. They all break down into APT for energy with the byproducts of
water, CO2, waste, and fat (waist). And, fat is fat. Fiber is
indigestible and, therefore, not really considered a nutrient. Then
there is water. Vitamins are classified as either fat or water soluble
They, like minerals are usually protein helpers of some sort. If you
have enough, you have enough. More is not better. The rest is dispensed
of in the urine, breath, feces, sweat, or stored in the fat for later
use.

There's your first class in basic nutrition.

And a bad one at that. Protein is not protein. It's well established that
different protein sources provide different rates of breakdown.

I don't know what the rate of breakdown has to do with anything? You have
not explained how this is important to you either. Most people can only
assimilate about 19 g of protein an hour. It's my guess that a dog could
assimilate less per hour. The rest is discharged through the urine. Hence,
the higher than average rate of kidney failure in weight lifters due to a
lifetime of overloading on proteins.

Protein is made up of amino acids. They form the building blocks for your
(and your dogs) development of protein (interpret proteins to mean proteins,
enzymes, hormones, etc.) in your own body.

And
fat is also not fat. There are saturated fats, unsaturated fats,
trans-fats, natural fats, chemical fats. All have different properties and
metabolize differently in the body.

True. But, they are a source of calories. That was my point. Beyond that,
one should certainly limit fat calories to a fairly low amount of total
caloric intake (30% or less). I'm not sure, but most dogs probably going to
get hypertension from a high level of LDLs in their limited 15 or 20 year
lifespan (even off of the stray gazelle in the Serengeti).

Ditto carbs.

Again, the purpose is for caloric intake. Diabetics need to watch their
carbs. Obese Americans may follow the latest fad. But, fad does not
lifestyle make. Carbs all break down (eventually) to glucose in the blood
and glycogen in the muscle cells. If its complex, it has to go through a
few more steps, but it all ends up where I stated in the my first post ...
as *energy* (the purpose of calorie intake, afterall), waste, or fat
(potential energy).

Whoever this yahoo is, don't listen to him.

Nice to meet you, too. I *used* to counsel people on diets ... real diets,
not fad diets. However, none of this intended to do so. This is the dogs
forum, after all. And, I'm giving my personal opinion and it is based on
common sense and widely available information, I like dogs and value common
sense. It has been some years since I studied any of this stuff, anyways.
Heck, any diabetic could probably give you the rundown I'm giving you.

No, Old Roy is NOT the same as the super premium foods. Among the extremely
common differences you will see are coat structure, length, thickness, and
gloss, skin suppleness, pad quality, thickness (cracked versus thick and
smooth), general condition, energy, endurance, amount needed to be fed
(i.e., better quality food feed less and get better result), stool quantity
and quality, and overall health.

All of what you just wrote is unsubstantiated opinion. One is going to find
few, if any unbiased studies on the internet. One would be well advised to
consult the Journal of Veterinary Medicine or a similar periodical for
studies on animal nutrition.


If all food was the same, there would be no difference between a diet of
quarter pounders and a diet of equal protein gotten from lean meats, fish,
and chicken.

Who said all food was the same? Certainly, there are high-fat meats and
low-fat meats. Some even classify medium fat meats. In people, we just
tend to eat humongous portions of the fattiest meats we can find. (Filet
mignon, anyone?) But, essentially, dog food companies do this type of
measuring for you. And, once again, when a body has enough of something,
the rest is superfluous.

Yours,
Dan

P.S. inciditally, I just checked my dog chow. It has 10% crude fat.
Compared to human consumption standards (30% or less), that's *very*
healthy.

P.S. inciditally, I just checked my dog chow. It has 10% crude fat.
Compared to human consumption standards (30% or less), that's *very*
healthy.

Oops. 30% of calorie intake does not equal 30 % of weight. Therefo

My Dog Chow states:

Crude Protein 21 % (min)
Fat 10 % (min)
(assuming the all remaining calories come from carbs)

I found this on the net at --
http://www.nutristrategy.com/nutrition/calories.htm

Fat: 1 gram = 9 calories
Protein: 1 gram = 4 calories
Carbohydrates: 1 gram = 4 calories
Alcohol: 1 gram = 7 calories

So,

100 g of Dog chow =

Protien 9 calories x 100 grams x 0.21 = 189 calories from Pro.
Fat 4 calories x 100 grams x 0.1 = 40 calories from fat
Carb 1 calories x 100 grams x 0.69 = 69 calories from carbs
Total = 298 total
calories per 100 grams

Thus, fat, in terms of caloric intake in this off-the-shelf dog food is
40/298= 13%

Still, very much within healthy nuturtional ranges.

Yours,
Dan

Math mistake, sorry.

Fat: 1 gram = 9 calories
Protein: 1 gram = 4 calories
Carbohydrates: 1 gram = 4 calories
Alcohol: 1 gram = 7 calories

So,

100 g of Dog chow =

Protien 9 calories x 100 grams x 0.21 = 189 calories from Pro.
Fat 4 calories x 100 grams x 0.1 = 40 calories from fat
Carb 4 calories x 100 grams x 0.69 = 276 calories from carbs
Total = 505 total calories per 100 grams

40/505= 7% of caloric intake is from fat.

and, my point remains the same.

Robin Nuttall wrote:
snip

If all food was the same, there would be no difference between a diet of
quarter pounders and a diet of equal protein gotten from lean meats,
fish, and chicken.

What do you feed your dogs Robin?

Alan Truism wrote:
Robin Nuttall wrote:
snip

If all food was the same, there would be no difference between a diet of
quarter pounders and a diet of equal protein gotten from lean meats,
fish, and chicken.


What do you feed your dogs Robin?


I feed Eukanuba Premium Performance. It works very, very well for my
dogs. I have tried other foods that do not do as well. I've been feeding
Euk Premium Performance for about 7 years now, exclusively. I think you
can see that it produces pretty darn good coat and condition...

http://www.totaldobe.com/images/viva/dobegirls010sm.jpg

http://www.totaldobe.com/images/cala...calavivasm.jpg

So, which one do you think turns 9 this month?

On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 03:28:18 GMT, Robin Nuttall
wrote:

I feed Eukanuba Premium Performance. It works very, very well for my
dogs. I have tried other foods that do not do as well. I've been feeding
Euk Premium Performance for about 7 years now, exclusively. I think you
can see that it produces pretty darn good coat and condition...

http://www.totaldobe.com/images/viva/dobegirls010sm.jpg

http://www.totaldobe.com/images/cala...calavivasm.jpg

So, which one do you think turns 9 this month?

Those are some gorgeous Dobe ladies, Robin! Well done!

Darla

--
"I'm still here, you *******s!"
---Papillon

http://www.yougotta.com/DARLA/

--

"Dan" wrote in message
et...

"Thomas Silverstein" wrote in message
newsan.2006.10.01.00.10.16.633682@Thomas-Silverstein...
Could someone point me to some helpful information.

So much of what I come across seems to have underlying ideology and
secondary motivation. I would love some unbiased third party type
comparison reviews.


Protein is protein. Carbs are carbs. There are simple and complex
carbs. They all break down into APT for energy with the byproducts of
water, CO2, waste, and fat (waist). And, fat is fat. Fiber is
indigestible and, therefore, not really considered a nutrient. Then
there is water. Vitamins are classified as either fat or water soluble
They, like minerals are usually protein helpers of some sort. If you
have enough, you have enough. More is not better. The rest is dispensed
of in the urine, breath, feces, sweat, or stored in the fat for later
use.

There's your first class in basic nutrition.

Quiz:

Q1: Where do we (and other mammals) get calories?

A. Only from protein, carbohydrates, and fat (please don't give your dog
beer, but alcohol metabolizes like a fat).

Q2: How many vitamins and minerals do I (and other mammals) need?

You need only enough vitamins and minerals to function, and not more.

Q3: Are there any other nutients?

Yes, water. However, arguably, you need some fiber to aid in defecation.

Everything else is superfluous.

Dog Chow or Sam's Choice works as well as the high-falouting stuff. Just
pick one and don't keep changing it all the time, you and your dog will
be much happier.

I pretty much agree with you. I feed my dog inexpensive dry food and
sometimes mix in part of a can of meaty food with gravy, sometimes even
some cat food. I think a variety of foods is better, as long as it does not
include much of anything really unhealthy.

Somewhere I saw where Vitamin C was added to some dog food. I have read
that most animals, with the notable exceptions of humans, apes (and related
animals), and (curiously) Guinea pigs, produce their own ascorbic acid,
especially in times of stress, and it is a vital factor in healing. Humans
would need to ingest as much as ten or more grams of ascorbic acid daily to
obtain the same benefits, which are far more profound than simply avoiding
scurvey. Is it really necessary, or even healthy, to add Vitamin C to pet
food for animals that make their own?

Secondly, I was advised to limit my dog's intake of rawhide chews, as they
are indigestible. I would assume that means it is simply roughage, which I
have thought to be generally beneficial. I would think rawhide would
contain some protein and fats, being composed of animal skin. My dog eats
these treats very efficiently, chewing off small pieces. What are your
thoughts?

Thanks,

Paul

"Dan" wrote in message
et...

All of what you just wrote is unsubstantiated opinion. One is going to
find few, if any unbiased studies on the internet. One would be well
advised to consult the Journal of Veterinary Medicine or a similar
periodical for studies on animal nutrition.

I'd like to see some good studies on this too. We've got a house full of
energetic dogs with nice coats and good skin and pad quality that have been
raised on Old Roy, Field Trial and River Run - 50 lbs for $9.95-$12.95.

Our Shar Pei was 13 when I had her put down, physically very healthy still
(alas, untreatably senile), a breed supposedly prone to "food allergies" and
various "food sensitivities" that should have precluded a long healthy life
on such stuff. Our Saint just went for his yearly checkup, and the vet
pronounced him "gorgeous" and asked what we were feeding. Heh.

So there's my anecdotal evidence that inexpensive dog food is fine. I fail
to see how spending two or three times as much would improve the health of
our dogs.

flick 100785