"Margaret" wrote in message
...

"read the breed standard, go
to dog shows and observe and talk to GSD people,

Hrm. There are good reasons why more and more GSD people are referring to
the creatures currently winning in the AKC show ring as "American Show
Shepherds", and refusing to consider them legitimate representatives of the
German Shepherd.
Personally, I'd be more inclined to recommend that the OP attempt to find
an avenue to get in touch with people who do some form of performance or
work with their dogs - agility (especially non-AKC agility), tracking, SAR,
etc.

Sionnach wrote:

Hrm. There are good reasons why more and more GSD people are referring to
the creatures currently winning in the AKC show ring as "American Show
Shepherds", and refusing to consider them legitimate representatives of the
German Shepherd.
Personally, I'd be more inclined to recommend that the OP attempt to find
an avenue to get in touch with people who do some form of performance or
work with their dogs - agility (especially non-AKC agility), tracking, SAR,
etc.

???? Especially non AKC agility? Why on earth would you say that? GSDs
who compete in AKC agility are automatically less good than GSDs who
compete in other venues? That makes no sense whatsoever. AKC agility
GSDs are no more or less likely to be American Show Shepherds than GSDs
competing in any other agility venue.

Regardless, if the poster wants a stable GSD he might first look at
local schutzhund clubs and not agility at all. Schutzhund is where he
will be most likely to find the best structure and temperament for the
breed, though FWIW poor rear assemblies are pretty much endemic to the
breed at this point, even among good working shepherds.

"Robin Nuttall" wrote:

???? Especially non AKC agility?

Snip
AKC agility GSDs are no more or less likely to be American Show Shepherds
than GSDs competing in any other agility venue.

Not true around here. You're more likely to see good working-line and/or
non-ASS (oh geez! never realized 'til just this second what the acronym for
that is) dogs at USDAA and some NADAC trials, and less likely to see Show
Shepherds.
In fact, around here, you don't see Show Shepherds doing NADAC or USDAA at
all, and you DO see some really nice working dogs (including Sheila Booth's
dogs).


Regardless, if the poster wants a stable GSD he might first look at local
schutzhund clubs and not agility at all.

I specified other activites besides agility, including tracking and SAR.

Schutzhund is where he will be most likely to find the best structure and
temperament for the breed,

I forgot to mention Schutzhund, but as a point of note - from comments
I've read over the years, both on USENET and in other areas, I'd've thought
the OP would be more likely to find a higher number of physically
better-built but temperamentally unsuitable (e.g. "sharp" temperaments) GSDs
in Schutzhund.

"Sionnach" wrote in message
...

"Robin Nuttall" wrote:

Schutzhund is where he will be most likely to find the best structure and
temperament for the breed,

I forgot to mention Schutzhund, but as a point of note - from comments
I've read over the years, both on USENET and in other areas, I'd've
thought the OP would be more likely to find a higher number of physically
better-built but temperamentally unsuitable (e.g. "sharp" temperaments)
GSDs in Schutzhund.

That's certainly the world that Finn came from :-(

Tara

On 6 Oct 2006 11:21:54 -0400, (Melinda Shore) wrote:

In article ,
shelly wrote:
She's posting through a Southwest Bell server, for what it's worth.

Heck, we can do better than that - residential DSL in
Irvine, CA.

Yay! Then she can check with Coastal GSD rescue (www.coastalgsr.org)
and find her dog a girlfriend that is spayed! They can have a great
time together but no puppies. The site will also point out just a
fraction of the problem in SoCal of people breeding GSD's. Even with
organizations like them pulling as many dogs as they can out of
shelters, there are way too many GSD's dying in shelters and needing
homes. It would take a really hard-hearted person to breed a pet GSD
after really finding out how many great GSD's are dying for lack of
good homes already.

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay

On 6 Oct 2006 17:39:42 -0700, "oknika" wrote:

Once the dog is registered with the AKC, what would you recommend
doing?

Get him a companion from a rescue like Coastal GSD rescue. The dog
will be spayed so you don't have to worry about adding to the number
of dogs without homes. He will have a full life. Another great dog
will find a good home with you and your dog. No puppies will have to
pay for being brought into a world that already has too many GSD's.
You won't have to worry about health and temperament testing your dog
and the female and you won't have to worry about what to do with
puppies that people may not want to take off your hands or adolescent
dogs that they want to give back to you. It sounds like you have been
a great owner, with training and all. Adopt another GSD and give her
that kind of a great home!

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay

Sionnach wrote:
"Robin Nuttall" wrote:



Not true around here. You're more likely to see good working-line and/or
non-ASS (oh geez! never realized 'til just this second what the acronym for
that is) dogs at USDAA and some NADAC trials, and less likely to see Show
Shepherds.
In fact, around here, you don't see Show Shepherds doing NADAC or USDAA at
all, and you DO see some really nice working dogs (including Sheila Booth's
dogs).

Not here. Around here I see very few large dogs of any type at NADAC
trials--too many can't make the SCT. Our trials abound with
mini-aussies, BCs, etc.

Schutzhund is where he will be most likely to find the best structure and
temperament for the breed,


I forgot to mention Schutzhund, but as a point of note - from comments
I've read over the years, both on USENET and in other areas, I'd've thought
the OP would be more likely to find a higher number of physically
better-built but temperamentally unsuitable (e.g. "sharp" temperaments) GSDs
in Schutzhund.

Um, no. A sharp, unstable temperament is severely frowned upon in
schutzhund. The mantra of every schutzhund trainer I know is a STABLE
temperament. Either you've misunderstood or you've been
misinformed--both things very easily happen with people who don't do or
take a lot of interest in schutzhund, so it's quite understandable.

A successful schutzhund dog, especially a schutzhund GSD, has a rock
solid temperament and in fact is often difficult to put into fight
drive. Most schutzhund work these days is done in prey anyway.

Robin Nuttall wrote:
Sionnach wrote:



I forgot to mention Schutzhund, but as a point of note - from comments
I've read over the years, both on USENET and in other areas, I'd've thought
the OP would be more likely to find a higher number of physically
better-built but temperamentally unsuitable (e.g. "sharp" temperaments) GSDs
in Schutzhund.

Um, no. A sharp, unstable temperament is severely frowned upon in
schutzhund. The mantra of every schutzhund trainer I know is a STABLE
temperament. Either you've misunderstood or you've been
misinformed--both things very easily happen with people who don't do or
take a lot of interest in schutzhund, so it's quite understandable.

A successful schutzhund dog, especially a schutzhund GSD, has a rock
solid temperament and in fact is often difficult to put into fight
drive. Most schutzhund work these days is done in prey anyway.


I wonder if the difference is regional. I'm not that far from Sarah
and I've seen some rather unstable dogs trying schutzhund at the club
level. The better clubs don't allow the unstable dogs for the bitework
training. One of the TDs I worked with made obedience and tracking
manditory each and every session before any protection work was done.
That helped weed out the macho jerks that thought schutzhund meant
having a big bad dawg.

Beth

wrote:
Robin Nuttall wrote:



A successful schutzhund dog, especially a schutzhund GSD, has a rock
solid temperament and in fact is often difficult to put into fight
drive. Most schutzhund work these days is done in prey anyway.


I wonder if the difference is regional. I'm not that far from Sarah
and I've seen some rather unstable dogs trying schutzhund at the club
level. The better clubs don't allow the unstable dogs for the bitework
training. One of the TDs I worked with made obedience and tracking
manditory each and every session before any protection work was done.
That helped weed out the macho jerks that thought schutzhund meant
having a big bad dawg.

For any real schutzhund club you better bet that obedience is mandatory.
While the helpers will play with puppies in prey drive and work not to
squelch that, the end desire is always the dog who can work under
control even at a very high arousal level--in other words, a dog who can
cap his drive and direct it appropriately. ALL of schutzhund is directed
to that goal. Build the drive, then cap, control, and direct it. After
all, the dog MUST be able to out the sleeve on a single command, and
dogs that are "dirty" with biting suffer severe score penalties and are
often simply failed.

Also remember that in order to even be given the chance to get a
schutzhund I, the dog must pass the BH, which is the "traffic safe
companion dog" test. A much longer and more arduous heeling pattern than
AKC, then a long down with the handler 30+ feet away with their back
turned while another dog works that long heeling routine. After all that
is the actual temperament test, which includes crowd work, bicyclists,
joggers, cars honking, and a tie out with a crowd passing by including a
dog. Only after that safety test is passed can a dog even apply to get a
SchH 1.

Bitework sports require clubs to have special insurance. No legitimate
club would tolerate truly unstable dogs for long, nor would they allow
anyone to work protection without doing obedience. In fact, we threw a
guy out of our club last year for that very thing. Only wanted to do the
protection work. Forget it.

On 6 Oct 2006 17:39:42 -0700, "oknika" wrote:

First of all, I want to thank everyone for responding so quickly to my
inquiry.
I am a beginner and unfortunately besides the GSD and the AKC
abbreviations, I don't know much more. So please bear with me
remembering the days when you just got started
Graff was brought here as a puppy and has his Pedigree certificate,
passport, chip and all over documents that are required to legally
bring a dog (The AKC registration I am finding out about, my dad said
he had registered, but I am not sure it was done correctly so I am
looking into it)
The dog was trained by a professional dog trainer. He is very sweet to
people and is good with dogs (he actually gets picked on by my
neighbors miniature poodle).
Obviously I do not want my puppy's puppies to be born into bad
conditions just for the purpose of someone wanting to make a buck;
that's why I am trying to find out everything that I can do to allow
him to have a happy full life.
So question #1:
Once the dog is registered with the AKC, what would you recommend
doing?
Oksana

TaraG wrote:
"diddy" wrote in message
...
in thread news:yftVg.7$HP.6@trndny08: "TaraG"
whittled the following words:

wrote in message
ups.com...
I brought a German shepherd dog from Moscow and he is now 2 years old.
I want to find him a girlfriend, but don't know where to start.
His parents are show dogs, but we never showed Graff.
Need some advice on how to go about finding him a girl.

If you aren't even willing to show him (or trial him in ANY German
Shepherd related working events), then why would you consider breeding
him?

There is no shortage of Shepherds in rescue that were the result of
poorly thought out "Pet" breedings. In fact, the rescues have far more
of these than they can handle.
I agree about the health testing, but is health testing in place in
Russia?
It would be nice to start, but without a coalition of breeders agreeing to
do this, it really doesn't say anything about bloodlines until there is a
database. And are there a lot of rescue dogs in Russia? Or does this
otherwise excellent advice even apply to the OP?

Anytime someone is contemplating breeding their untested pet, this advice
applies. If you notice, I also mentioned (*stressed* actually) temperament
issues. Whether or not the greater GSD community is testing for health
issues, I'm unclear as to how potentially breeding Shepherds with aggressive
or overly fearful temperaments is a good thing no matter *what* country the
OP is in.

Tara

Below are some recommended books that can help prepare one for
understanding the German Shepherd Dog, and save you the time of wading
through less informative books on the market. It is important for
anyone contemplating breeding a GSD to understand both the European
lines, and the American lines, and the differences between the two.

Willis is a little technical for some, but is by far the best writer
on the topic if you can take the time to read him. Willis both
understands the genetics of dog breeding in general, and specializes
in the German Shepherd Dog. Hart is also exceedingly well informed
on both genetics in general and the German Shepherd Dog in particular.
Most of the below books can be found in the local library or at online
sites like Amazon.

On line there are any number of excellent and highly educational sites
with free and excellent information as well. The "German Shepherd
Dog Illustrated Standard" by Ayotte and Pfeiffer is one of the best
such sites for a novice to read and reread, with charts similar to
those used by Hart and pictures to reinforce their verbiage. Another
good article online is The German SV and SV Style Shows by Fred
Lanting. After that Google can find you more than you likely will
have time to read.

It is difficult to detail the enormous damage done to the GSD breed by
the indiscriminant breeding of pet quality GSDs, as well as by the
improper breeding of even very high quality GSDs. In most European
countries and especially in Germany, their breeding organizations are
very strict on which dogs are allowed to be breed and receive papers.
The tests and shows and evaluation process there is very professional
compared to our AKC in the USA.

I hope it does not sound as if I and some others are jumping all over
you, as I fully realize how little the average person knows about
genetics and the impact it has on the breed. This information is
subtly, but consistently and effectively distorted and discounted by
both the mainstream media and the educational systems in the USA. In
fact in "our multi-cultural" society that is being increasing
mongrelized, it is highly politically incorrect to even discuss such
matters, for someone might make the connection that there is a
parallel between breeds in dogs, horses, and cattle, and races in
humans.

While any child that has not been lied to most of their lives and
punished for using their brain will readily understand this, it is
important to the powers that be that we at least pretend to ignore the
impact of genetics in humans.

So I understand why so many people even highly educated and very
intelligent people don't have a clue to the most basic concepts of dog
breeding or of the powerful influences of genetics on all species of
life. In fact it is often the most educated people that have been
lied to the most that have the least understanding of what most
farmers understand from childhood and use in their everyday lives.
Having been raised seeing the power of genetics and how to manipulate
the results through proper or improper breeding they cannot be fooled.
However, most city raised university students have had years of
sociologist, anthropologists, and psychologists lying to them about
genetics to the point they cannot even allow themselves to think of
such things, much less understand the vital importance of genetics and
breeding in humans as well as in German Shepherds.

Our current immigration policies and the agendas of a large group of
social scientists are aimed at diluting the human gene pool of the USA
just as was done to the GSD in by the indiscriminate breeding of pet
quality dogs, and of dogs that would produce the worst kind of flaws.
Even the most ardent defenders of the proper breeding of GSDs will
typically balk at suggesting we take even a fraction of that care with
our human offspring. People that would not dare breed their fine SV
GSD to a GSD of pet quality, will quite happily give their daughters
hand in marriage to some pet quality human being.

So don't feel bad that you are just now beginning to awaken to the
systematically hidden truths of breeding and the power of genetics.
Most people never awaken to these truths and are happy to parrot the
evening news or the occasional history channel fiction on the topic.
PBS has produced several totally fabricated programs whose aim was to
"prove" that genetics were not important and that in fact there was no
such thing as different races, and by parallel that there is no such
thing as breeds in dogs, cats, horses, or cattle.

One such program was the Public Broadcasting System three-part wallow
in brainwashing called "Race: The Power of an Illusion," which
purports that "Race is a human invention." This was pure "propaganda"
and is what PBS typically produces for the taxpayers who finance their
own deception.

This massive three part lie was produced by Larry Adelman and funded
by the Ford Foundation as well as the taxpayers. The first part of
the series concentrates on the "race doesn't exist" theme, generously
larded with shots of Adolf Hitler, lynchings of blacks, and the
appropriate dirge music to make sure you're in right mood for the
message the series is sending.

From there their "Hollywood" style production launches into interviews
of sociologists and anthropologists who have been long been "outted"
as having for decades intentionally faked data and intentionally
distorted studies to support their political agenda of "diversity at
all costs." Sadly these professional liars are still being studied
in most universities. You probably read some of them: Franz Boas,
Stephen Gould, and Margaret Meade to name the best known of the
offenders.

Those doing the outing like the giants in the social studies field,
Author Jensen of Berkley and Kevin MacDonald PhD., get no media
coverage at all and can only be found in obscure publications like the
Harvard Medical Journals and in their books that are never reviewed by
the mainstream media.

Well here is a list of some of the best books on the topic of German
Shepher's and their breeding.

Suggested Primary Reading List:

The German Shepherd Dog: A Genetic History" by Malcolm B. Willis

"German Shepherd Dog Ps 810" by Ernest H. Hart

"This is the German Shepherd (This is the Dog)" by Ernest H. Hart &
William Goldbecker

"Schutzhund: Theory and Training Methods (Howell Reference Books)" by
Susan Barwig

"Advanced Schutzhund (Howell Reference Books)" by Ivan Balabanov

"The Art of Raising a Puppy" by: The Monks of New Skete

"The German Shepherd Today" by Strickland

Genetics of the Dog by Malcolm B. Willis

Practical Genetics for Dog Breeders by Malcolm B. Willis

Suggested Secondary Reading List:

"Dog Breeding" by Ernest H. Hart

"The German Shepherd Dog: An Owner's Guide to a Happy Healthy Pet"
by: Liz Palika

"The New Complete German Shepherd Dog" by: Jane G. Bennett

"The Everything German Shepherd Book: A Complete Guide to Raising,
Training, And Caring for Your German Shepherd (Everything: Pets)" by
Joan Hustace Walker

"Good Owners, Great Dogs" by: Brian Kilcommons

"Complete Book of Dog Breeding" by: DVM, Dan Rice