This is not dog related and from this point forward I will try to keep
topics I start focused on dogs. However, after reading this board and
some of the drama in some lives, I want to apologize for my harsh
judgment. Part of it was based on my history with Janet, and part of it
was based on seeing Paul as an innocent victim.

Unfortunately (and stupidly) I based my thoughts on Paul on one
particular topic of discussion. Being somewhat of a veteran of internet
groups, I should have known better than to do so. I have seen it so
many times....people who have drama after drama, always the victim, and
never accountable. I think perhaps it was the idea of the dog being put
to death before everything possible was tried, which caused me to react
emotionally rather than logically. Thus, throwing away all of my
internet experience to follow a hunch. I have no excuse. My heart was
in the right place, but that isn't an excuse really.

Upon reading the thread about poor Photon, I had to stop reading. I was
getting so angry learning about an abandoned cat, a newly deceased cat,
and still no accountability for any of it. Just reasons and excuses to
attempt to deflect any accountability at all. I tried not to be harsh,
but the more I read the more difficult it became and I realized that
this is probably what all of you have had to deal with for however long
this poster has been around. We have one of these on the AOL board too.
Every once in a while a new idiot comes along, buying into the stories,
offering sympathy and empathy, and failing to understand why the rest
of us respond the way we do. Having a total disregard for what those of
us have been around to experience, and continuing to be supportive of
said poster until they learn the lesson for themselves.

It seems that in this forum *I* have been that idiot. And I am sorry.

Sorry for the off topic disruption.

Denise

On 25 Oct 2006 11:58:35 -0700, "Lowly Dog Owner"
wrote:


It seems that in this forum *I* have been that idiot. And I am sorry.

I don't think there's anyone here who's never been an idiot. But it's
very good of you to apologize, and much appreciated. Really, though,
I think that Paul is the idiot here.

Mustang Sally

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 14:23:53 -0500, diddy ,
clicked their heels and said:

In our dog classes, we get dog aggressive dogs ALL the time.Every class.
We keep a 1instructor per every two students ratio to watch, intervene
and separate if need be, anything that looks like a problem.

You have 6 volunteer instructors for a 12 dog class? Where do you
find them? I have 1 or 2 assistants at class, along with me, for a
12 dog class. By week 5 (the week in question) if I had 2 assistants
and one wasn't available, or I had one, but she wasn't available, it's
a week of class that I've always been comfortable with solo or with
only one assistant.

I get dog aggressive dogs on a regular basis - generally at least one
per class and I run ~15+ [7 week] classes per year. This incident is
a first, and I've been running classes since 1989.

We always
keep two separate rings to separate out these identified dogs, knowing that
many of the students do not work their dogs between classes, and
give personal attention and handling. The separate rings prevent such
things from happening.

Separate rings don't exist in many places - places that aren't dog
clubs.

There are several drawbacks with evening classes at my location, vs
the bulk of our classes, which are on Saturday mornings and
afternoons. There are also some pluses.

On Saturdays, our classes are back to back, and there may not be as
much time as we'd like for extra help, questions after class, etc.
With 4 of us, there generally can be though. We have daylight, which
is a very good thing, since the building we use is just not large
enough for an indoor class of more than 6-8 dogs.

Our evening classes during the spring and summer are usually no
problem, except the heat in July and August is a crap shoot. Next
summer, the building will have AC, so we will have more options. The
Fall evening session is tough though. Even though we stop before DST
ends, we have issues with lighting and that is not a good thing. We
have had good times and bad with the lights, and promises, but stuff
happens when you least expect it too. Another problem with evening
classes is that a lot of the dogs don't get sufficient time to get
their ya-ya's out before coming to class. Owner rushes home, grabs
dog, races to class. OTOH, we can stay after class or meet someone
early, and they can get more one-on-one that way, which is ideal for
some dogs.

In a perfect world, I would have a large training building with heat
and AC. But the world isn't perfect and I make do, and have done so,
rather well, for many years.

I may decide to hold smaller classes in the Fall evening next year.
The building is being renovated and hopefully that will make for some
better and more usable space.

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

diddy wrote:
in thread oups.com:
"Lowly Dog Owner" whittled the following words:
Part of it was based on my history with Janet, and part of it
was based on seeing Paul as an innocent victim.
Or perhaps a bit of both..
In our dog classes, we get dog aggressive dogs ALL the time.Every class.
We keep a 1instructor per every two students ratio to watch, intervene
and separate if need be, anything that looks like a problem. We always
keep two separate rings to separate out these identified dogs, knowing that
many of the students do not work their dogs between classes, and
give personal attention and handling. The separate rings prevent such
things from happening.
It's been criticised that Janet did not have a favorable instructor/student
ratio. (It wasn't me that brought it up, but it being said, it IS a factor
that has prevented such incidents in our dog club)
I also wonder if Paul had been taught how to get Muttley's attention, and
distract him, to get him to work for him, instead of paying attention to
surroundings.

Paul arrived to class late, didn't work with his dog between classes, and
did not arrive early enough to warm up his dog to take off the edge.

I give Janet credit for offering help for FREE. That's big. Internet
searches have come up with actually a fairly active dog community in the
Cockeysville, MD area. Unless Paul burned his bridges with trainers
there,simply looking for sympathy and attention on usenet ,the whole
unfortunate thing with Janet never needed to happen. Perhaps Paul didn't
know how to locate local talent?

It's not Paul's fault that he is a clueless first time dog owner. We all
started with a clean slate at one point.He could have made more effort.
Perhaps he feels owning a dog is as passive an experience as his owning a
cat. There are tons and tons of passive cat owners, who are not EVIL
people.They just don't meet the standards that ENLIGHTENED cat owners have
established. IOW'S Paul's ownership commitment is very AVERAGE.
It doesn't seem acceptable to us.. but based on the number of untrained,
uncared for, and dumped animals in shelters that die every WEEK, the
fact that Paul sought help AT ALL,makes him a notch above average pet
owning America.

And I still think the critic who originally stated that Janet's classes did
not have a sufficient amount of supervision,holds a certain ring of truth.

Very good post, Diddy, I agree with everything you said.

Not to speak of the fact that nobody thought that Paul was such a bad
dog owner while he was contemplating euthanizing Muttley. The change in
how he started to be viewed in this group occurred the moment he began
to question the training that Muttley received in Janet's classes.

And yes, I do believe that owners are responsible for their pets. But
Paul didn't start by wanting Muttley; he just wanted "to save the dog
from the needle" - just like Handsome Jack.

Paul was no dog expert, he wasn't prepared to spend a lot of money for
this dog, he didn't want to change his life significantly for this dog
whom he initially did not intend to keep. Is he to blame for that?
Well, if only perfect dog owners were to own a dog, then perhaps the
dog would soon become extinct, I'm afraid.

Lucy

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 15:06:34 -0500, diddy ,
clicked their heels and said:


Even if not in a separate ring, certainly taken to a remote area of the
parking lot seems prudent, NO?

It depends. If the dog is acting up, you bet. A dog who is not
acting up, and has been compliant and sitting calmly? No.

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

Janet B wrote in
:

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 14:23:53 -0500, diddy ,
clicked their heels and said:

In our dog classes, we get dog aggressive dogs ALL the time.Every
class. We keep a 1instructor per every two students ratio to watch,
intervene and separate if need be, anything that looks like a
problem.

You have 6 volunteer instructors for a 12 dog class? Where do you
find them? I have 1 or 2 assistants at class, along with me, for a
12 dog class.

If we're lucky, we get one assistant to help an instructor with an 8-10
dog class. I rounded up my roommate for the few weeks this last session
my "regular" assistant couldn't attend, but I already knew there were
some dogs that needed a little more watching than one person could
manage while explaining and demonstrating the exercises.

We can barely round up 6 volunteer instructors for a whole session of
classes! That's with free classes for instructors and assistants.
Admittedly, we're a small club, with about 20-25 active members.

Separate rings don't exist in many places - places that aren't dog
clubs.

Even places that *are* dog clubs. We've got a half-wall separating the
"working" area from the observation area. One or two overstimulated
dogs might be okay in the obs. area, but I usually suggest that they
take the stressed-out or brain-fried for a walk around the block.

In a perfect world, I would have a large training building with heat
and AC.

You, me, and anyone else.

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 15:49:21 -0500, diddy ,
clicked their heels and said:

Private trainers cannot provide facilities and services or even
the experience that a volunteer driven club can offer. PETSMART
could not exist in this area.

We have several clubs in this area. They've changed a lot over the
years, and I don't think for the better. Yes, the club I belong to
relies on volunteers, but still has to grovel for instructors. I used
to teach there, but don't agree with the syllabus, and they frown on
instructors teaching their own, so......

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

"diddy" wrote in message
...

Perhaps rural communities have a larger sense of community.

Perhaps so.

But this, of course, has nothing at all to do with the fact that Janet
teaches in a decidedly NON rural environment, and Paul lives in a decidedly
NON rural environment. And yet you want to lay blame by comparing it to
*your* bucolic world. That's simply unfair.

Tara

Janet B wrote:

We have several clubs in this area. They've changed a lot over the
years, and I don't think for the better. Yes, the club I belong to
relies on volunteers, but still has to grovel for instructors. I used
to teach there, but don't agree with the syllabus, and they frown on
instructors teaching their own, so......

I don't know if the Southern Maryland Dog Training Club is one.
I used to belong to it. I got a lot out of it, but did feel that there
was a "straight and narrow" from their point of view, and deviations
were not tolerated.

Diddy, if you're reading this, how does your club deal with trying
to provide consistency to novices, and how do you balance that
with instructors' interest in different techniques, or different opinions

about how to approach a problem? Is there an orthodoxy?

Of course, I am only one person but still cannot be consistent enough
in method to teach a class. In my training, I tailor the method to the
individual dog. When I contemplate owner-dog teams, I suspect that
there is a "best method" that works for each team, but I don't know
what it is.

amy Dahl

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 15:40:01 -0400, sighthounds & siberians
wrote:

On 25 Oct 2006 11:58:35 -0700, "Lowly Dog Owner"
wrote:


It seems that in this forum *I* have been that idiot. And I am sorry.

I don't think there's anyone here who's never been an idiot. But it's
very good of you to apologize, and much appreciated. Really, though,
I think that Paul is the idiot here.

What she said.

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay