Tara wrote:
And I caught grief for pointing out to Paul that he'd been doing this
*for months*, but its ok to say this after two days of a newbie owner
making mistakes?

I don't see this.

Tara

I don't get what you don't get. I'll agree that Paul was a bit of a
loser. But i also think that some people, while "meaning well" make
very foolish choices that result in a lot of drama. I'm sorry that
Lynne got bitten. I don't think a dog who bites someone who grabs their
collar in the middle of a dog fight is necessarily human aggressive.
But it's likely the dog will die because of it just the same. BroomSandy

I just looked at Briar's picture and his imminent death breaks my heart.
However the scene you described was no less than horrifying, Lynne...You
know how it is when a dog gets wound up in the heat of battle that can't
always just shut down in an instant. I am afraid he is done for at your
house because you are afraid of him. I wasn't there and I am by no
means a specialist in behavior so I am certainly not judging his
behavior or yours once the fight was on. I take issue with what lead up
to the fight. My question is in general for anyone that chooses to
offer an opinion. "Would it be beyond unscrupulous to return him and
indicate he may be dog aggressive"? (leaving out the dog bite part)


Be Free.....Judy

Lynne wrote:
on Tue, 21 Nov 2006 03:51:52 GMT, "Sandy in OK" wrote:

I hate to say it, but it seems like
you've been trying to create an issue with this dog since you brought
him home.

uh, certainly not intentionally. I'm here asking for advice and trying to
understand and follow it.

I'm sure you didn't set out to destroy this dog. But it does seem that
you've made the choices most likely to create the issues you are
worried about. For instance, you knew that he had jumped your other dog
over food. More than one person suggested that you separate them when
food is involved. Instead you were feeding them together (which caused
the incident that got you bitten) You were concerned about resource
guarding, so instead of approaching it with a plan, you snatched food
out of his mouth to see what would happen. Instead of working with him
to see what his on-leash abilities were, you took the two dogs for a
"walk" which could have ended up with loose dogs and skinned knees. I'm
not pointing this out to be mean. Really, I'm not. But when you bring
in a new dog, it's a great idea to take things slow and give the dog a
chance to settle in. It's a hard adjustment for the dog. He doesn't
know you, he doesn't know your rules. If this dog goes back to rescue
(and he will probably be put down due to the bites) and you get another
dog, are you going to be aware of the mistakes you made with poor Briar
and be able to handle things differently? I hope so. But you do need to
realize that a lot of this dog's failure was your own. Broom Sandy

"Sandy in OK" wrote in
ups.com:


Lynne wrote:
on Tue, 21 Nov 2006 03:51:52 GMT, "Sandy in OK"
wrote:

I hate to say it, but it seems like
you've been trying to create an issue with this dog since you
brought him home.

uh, certainly not intentionally. I'm here asking for advice and
trying to understand and follow it.

I'm sure you didn't set out to destroy this dog. But it does seem that
you've made the choices most likely to create the issues you are
worried about. For instance, you knew that he had jumped your other
dog over food. More than one person suggested that you separate them
when food is involved. Instead you were feeding them together (which
caused the incident that got you bitten) You were concerned about
resource guarding, so instead of approaching it with a plan, you
snatched food out of his mouth to see what would happen. Instead of
working with him to see what his on-leash abilities were, you took the
two dogs for a "walk" which could have ended up with loose dogs and
skinned knees. I'm not pointing this out to be mean. Really, I'm not.
But when you bring in a new dog, it's a great idea to take things slow
and give the dog a chance to settle in. It's a hard adjustment for the
dog. He doesn't know you, he doesn't know your rules. If this dog goes
back to rescue (and he will probably be put down due to the bites) and
you get another dog, are you going to be aware of the mistakes you
made with poor Briar and be able to handle things differently? I hope
so. But you do need to realize that a lot of this dog's failure was
your own. Broom Sandy



My only point earlier is that it might have been helpful....indeed even
MORE appropriate....if you had even come close to saying this sort of
thing to Paul who had been setting his dog up in far worse ways over the
course of a lot longer.

To go after Lynne for not being a competent handler when it comes to a
dog that clearly has some guarding issues seems over the top to me.

Tara

Lynne wrote in
m:

on Tue, 21 Nov 2006 01:04:03 GMT, (Melinda Shore)
wrote:

Being bitten while breaking up a dog fight has, I think,
happened to most of us who have ever broken up dog fights,
and it's generally been otherwise really nice dogs who've
done it

Is it normal for the dog's aggression to be redirected toward a human
when the human has taken him under physical control? The 2 bites he
gave me were definitely a result of my stupidity, however even after I
had him under physical control, he was literally trying to spin to get
at me and bite me again.

This *can* happen, though it is eye opening when it does.

This is a tough situation, and- depending on how bad the bites were- I
would reccomend in person help before this turns into a mess.
Unfortunately, the fact that he now has a bite history is not a good
thing for him. So, if you were willing to try and work this through with
a competent trainer, I would go for it.

But, if you could break down exactly what happened (and in what order)
and describe the bites and the damage to you, it would be clearer. When
he was outside, was he trying to get to Roxy?


I've only ever broken up one other dog fight
and neither dog went for either of us. Briar lunging at the glass
toward me was freaky, too. I just don't know what to make of this.

I'm uncertain here. Was he trying to get to *you* or was he trying to
get to Roxy?


The collar grabbing was instinctual. It all happened so fast... All I
could think was "protect Roxy."

We've ALL been there and done that.....and ended up with the scars to
prove it.

I've certainly grabbed a collar or two in my day, and so far, in terms
of grabbing the collar I've been lucky. But I *always* twist the collar
and keep my hand wedged *behind* the dog's ears....and I don't let go or
drop them down until I *know* they are done. Even still, it could easily
go wrong, but since I'm often in scenarios where I don't know how many
owners will actually take charge of their dogs, I like to have one hand
as free as possible, so I take my chances.

FWIW, I also think you gave this dog WAYwayway too much freedom and too
much responsibility. But I do not think you went out to set him up.
We've seen that sort of set up around here recently, and I honestly
don't think that's what you did. You just tried to incorporate him into
the fold too soon for his abilities....and long before you got to know
him and his quirks. That is not the same thing as it being your fault
that he has a bite history (did he break skin?)

Hell, Annie is *still* crated or tethered around my apartment because I
don't completely trust how she is with my cats. So, rather than set up a
potential confrontation, I keep them near each other, but make sure the
situation will never get beyond a certain point until I trust everyone
involved better.

Tara

Tara wrote:
My only point earlier is that it might have been helpful....indeed even
MORE appropriate....if you had even come close to saying this sort of
thing to Paul who had been setting his dog up in far worse ways over the
course of a lot longer.

To go after Lynne for not being a competent handler when it comes to a
dog that clearly has some guarding issues seems over the top to me.

Paul didn't really take the dog on as a family member, but a foster.
Was he committed? No. And I think a part of his problem was the makeup
of the class he attended (I know that's not a popular opinion here,
but. . . ) I do think this issue is about more than Lynne than being an
incompetent handler, or the dog having resource guarding issues (he
allowed her to snatch food from his mouth without protest) If it was
just poor Briar going back to the rescue to face his fate, I might not
even say anything. But if Lynne has any intention of trying another
dog, she needs to be aware of her tendency towards self-fulfilling
prophecy. Broom Sandy

Judith Althouse wrote:
I just looked at Briar's picture and his imminent death breaks my heart.
However the scene you described was no less than horrifying, Lynne...You
know how it is when a dog gets wound up in the heat of battle that can't
always just shut down in an instant. I am afraid he is done for at your
house because you are afraid of him. I wasn't there and I am by no
means a specialist in behavior so I am certainly not judging his
behavior or yours once the fight was on. I take issue with what lead up
to the fight. My question is in general for anyone that chooses to
offer an opinion. "Would it be beyond unscrupulous to return him and
indicate he may be dog aggressive"? (leaving out the dog bite part)

Unfortunately, I think it is irresponsible to leave out a human bite
when reporting why the dog is being returned.

"Sandy in OK" wrote in
oups.com:


Tara wrote:
My only point earlier is that it might have been helpful....indeed
even
MORE appropriate....if you had even come close to saying this sort of
thing to Paul who had been setting his dog up in far worse ways over
the
course of a lot longer.

To go after Lynne for not being a competent handler when it comes to
a
dog that clearly has some guarding issues seems over the top to me.

Paul didn't really take the dog on as a family member, but a foster.

That story changed from week to week, if that helps.

Was he committed? No. And I think a part of his problem was the makeup
of the class he attended (I know that's not a popular opinion here,
but. . . )

Sure, because he'd already done far more damage than Briar has done
BEFORE ever entering that class....and yet you don't see anything wrong
with taking Lynne to task but only taking on the role of "poor Paul"
cheering section? That's simply unfair.

I do think this issue is about more than Lynne than being an
incompetent handler, or the dog having resource guarding issues (he
allowed her to snatch food from his mouth without protest)

Reslource guarding with dogs isn't always related to resource guarding
with people. I would think you'd be clear on that.

If it was
just poor Briar going back to the rescue to face his fate, I might not
even say anything. But if Lynne has any intention of trying another
dog, she needs to be aware of her tendency towards self-fulfilling
prophecy.

You are drastically jumping to conclusions based on no information, but
then given that you did the same thing with Paul, I'm seeing a pattern
here. An unfair pattern, but a pattern of your own nonetheless.

Tara

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:46:55 -0600, Lynne
wrote:


I don't know if this is my fault or not, for rushing things, but I can't
keep him now that I know he is willing to attack me. I have to think it
was in his nature anyway and I triggered it. I'm just not willing to
keep a dog who will attack people. Myself, I can handle it, but my kids
and their friends, other people--no way. That's an unmanigeable
situation for our lifestyle.

I wouldn't assume that because he bit you when you broke up a fight
that he will bite you, your kids or visitors to your home if no one is
breaking up a fight. I would get a behaviorist to take a look at the
situation so you will know whether there is any need to worry about
your kids. The rescue you got him from might be able to help you with
that. FWIW, I've had many a dog that would bite me if I grabbed a
collar during a fight with another dog that would never in a million
years hurt me or a child for any reason. If you ever have to break up
another fight between any dogs, yours or a strange dog attacking Roxy,
grab a broom or something to stick between them and yell in your most
commanding voice for them to knock it off. Don't stick your hand
between them. If you can grab the back legs as they are tussling,
that's good, too, but be careful that you don't do it halfway or put
them down too soon or the dog can spin and bite you. That's why I
prefer getting something else to break up the fight with so that I can
stay back until the dog is out of full on fight mode and has its
thinking brain engaged.

The odds are he will be put down if you return him since he has bitten
because of the liability on a dog that has bitten for any reason at
all. That's a shame, though, because he may well not actually be a
liability. I don't know many dogs that won't bite when they are
fighting. They aren't thinking, they are just fighting with another
dog and then you get yourself in the middle of it and it just happens.
That's not the same as a dog who will attack a human. He didn't
attack you. He attacked Roxy. So far he has not been willing to
attack people, so you shouldn't be basing your decisions on the
assumption that he has. Believe me, it is a whole different ballgame
to bite someone breaking up a serious fight and attacking a human.
Different in the dog's head and very different for the safety of the
humans in contact with the dog.

You should not have been practicing this stuff with them off leash and
side by side, especially after he had already shown signs of resource
guarding. The fact that he didn't go off on Roxy before is a good
sign that the resource guarding can be manageable and isn't so strong
that it is an absolute, but you haven't done enough of the groundwork
to be putting it to that kind of test. It's like you took someone who
had been good on their diet for a couple of days and waved their
favorite dessert in front of them on the assumption that because they
hadn't eaten it in those couple of days they must be over their
cravings completely. You haven't traded enough and trained enough for
him to understand that he doesn't have to go after all the goodies or
that he will not be allowed to. His brain is still telling him that
his best bet is to get while the getting's good even though he has
been trying to be obedient to you. There have been a lot of good
signs, but pushing too far too fast brought out the worst. Then
handling the fight wrong got you bit, not any human aggression on
Briar's part that would be a danger to your family (unless you don't
teach them not to jump into the middle of a dog fight, anyway). Cesar
may be able to fix things like that in one visit, but the rest of us
take a lot longer than that. Now stop waving temptation in front of
his face until he knows how to get what he really wants without doing
anything you don't want him to do and has practiced that enough that
it is his first instinct when he sees what he wants (like my attention
hog who now sits away from you instead of rubbing all over you when he
wants to be petted because although bumping and rubbing was ingrained
when he came, it never works here while sitting pretty always does).

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 22:20:48 -0600, Lynne
wrote:

on Tue, 21 Nov 2006 01:04:03 GMT, (Melinda Shore) wrote:

Being bitten while breaking up a dog fight has, I think,
happened to most of us who have ever broken up dog fights,
and it's generally been otherwise really nice dogs who've
done it

Is it normal for the dog's aggression to be redirected toward a human when
the human has taken him under physical control? The 2 bites he gave me
were definitely a result of my stupidity, however even after I had him
under physical control, he was literally trying to spin to get at me and
bite me again. I've only ever broken up one other dog fight and neither
dog went for either of us. Briar lunging at the glass toward me was
freaky, too. I just don't know what to make of this.

Yes, it is normal for the aggression to be "redirected," especially to
someone putting themselves physically in the way, but it can also
happen when a dog can't get to the object of its frustration but can't
get rid of the frustration, either. You may have actually both put
yourself physically between Briar and the object of his frustration
and increased his frustration at the same time when you don't know
that he has any self-calming skills at all. It would be a bizarre dog
that ended up out in the backyard calmer and happy to be out there
under the circumstances.

The key point, however, is not what he does after he is *under
physical control* as you seem to be basing your assessment on, but
what he does *after he has calmed down.* The fight is going on in the
dog's brain. Think about how you feel when you are all riled up about
something. Your body is tensed up and pumped up with adrenaline and a
whole different part of your brain is in charge, not the rational
thinking part you have in control for your daily life. Think of it
this way. You see a teenage guy attack your daughter. You get scared
and angry and go after him. You're giving him a pounding when somebody
else comes along and pulls him off of you. Do you stop being all
riled up and looking for a fight as soon as that person has physical
control over you or are you now fighting that person so you can get
back to kicking the ass of the guy who enraged you? Your behavior,
which looks out of control to onlookers and basically is out of
control once you are engaged in fight mode and that part of your brain
has taken over, continues on the same course until you calm down
emotionally, not until you are controlled by someone physically. Once
you see that your daughter was safe, you might calm down fairly soon
or you might need to go kick some tires or wave your fists at the guy
or something to release the adrenaline pumping through your system and
demanding that you either fight or flee. Depends on the circumstances
as much as it depends on you personally. Some of it is personality,
some of it is prior training and practice in self-calming techniques,
part of it is how long you were running on adrenaline... you don't
know what it would take until you've been there. No matter what,
though, just having been pulled off the guy you felt you needed to
pound would not render you instantly calm and would, actually, more
likely make you at least temporarily angrier and more combative. Until
the fight is gone from your brain, your body is still going to be in
fight or flight mode and even flight takes fighting if you are being
restrained.

What you did when you broke up the fight was to gain control over
Briar physically and then throw him outside. Why would that calm him
down emotionally? Did it reassure him that he did not have to fight
for what food was available or risk starving? No. In fact, you may
have reinforced his conviction that if you don't get it all while the
getting's good, you're gonna get absolutely nothing. Let's say that
it was a dominance play instead of a food thing. Did you teach him
that he can find his place in the pack without having to go Rambo all
over Roxy's ass? No, you taught him that if he can't take her down
completely, he's not only not going to be alpha, he's going to be
nothing. Did you do anything calming with him at all? No, yet you
are faulting him for not being calm. Why? Because your kids can
figure out that when they are sent to their room it is because they
have broken the rules they knew about in advance and they need to calm
down and apologize and act repentant if they want to get back in your
good graces? They are humans with different cognitive and
communication skills who have lived with you and learned how you
operate for years. You can't hold Briar to knowing what you haven't
taught him and you can't expect that he knows to calm himself down
while outside instead of lunging at the door to get back in or to act
contrite because that will get him a better result than venting his
frustration. Have you taught him that?

My kids would amaze people at a very young age because they always
shared happily. The same people who were amazed were taking things
away from their toddlers, giving them to others and admonishing the
kids who didn't understand what was being said to them that they had
to share. I was taking my own M&Ms and asking the kids if they wanted
to share and handing them an M&M. Sharing was fun because it meant
they got M&M's. When I gave them their own stash and asked if they
would share with me, they would gleefully hand one over and we would
share back and forth for a while. This was before they could express
a sentence, but they learned the word share in that context. By the
time they could speak in sentences and think through consequences, I
would remind them when they didn't want to share something that they
didn't like to share with people who didn't share with them in return
so if they didn't share (with a sister, for example), then they would
get nothing the next time the other had something good that they
wanted shared with them. What goes around comes around. You took a
baby who doesn't even speak your language, cannot cognitively think
through consequence, had not been behaviorally trained as to
consequences and had obviously never been exposed to the concept of
sharing and went straight to not only be willing and able to share but
be happy about it to boot. When what should have been the expected
tantrum came over having to share what he thought he was entitled to,
you then expected this baby with no cognitive or coping skills to
somehow magically not only know that it would be better for him to
calm himself down instead of throwing a tantrum but also magically
know how to do so while already in the throes of one. Did your
daughter not throw tantrums instinctively and only calm herself down
after she had been taught how to do so and that it would pay off
better to do so? Every kid I know had to go through those processes
before getting there. Dogs need to, also, even more so given their
limited cognitive abilities.

Have you worked on rewarding his ability to calm himself down when he
was frustrated or just pushed him harder when he showed some
restraint? I haven't heard of anything being better for Briar when he
didn't go after Roxy over the kibble like he did for the bones. In
your mind, he probably had it better because you continued to feed him
when you would have stopped otherwise, but how would he know that? He
can't read your mind as to what you would do if he didn't cooperate.
He only knows that cooperation isn't giving him any payoff. If he
cooperates, he shares the goodies with Roxy. If he doesn't and turns
to intimidation, he can get all the goodies, including Roxy's. You
got mad about the bone once, but why would he assume that would be the
consequence of any challenge to Roxy? It was a one-off, not a
pattern, and he may not have connected your response to what he had
done anyway, given how important timing is to dog learning. Why is it
surprising that he took door number two after number one didn't pay
off in any way that a new dog to your household could understand?

Wasn't Roxy even challenging your daughter not so long ago? Do you
think she doesn't also send snotty superior dog signals to Briar that
might be telling him he'd better challenge her now or be her victim
forever? There are good ways to deal with dominance plays and food
guarding but you haven't used them. So how can you say at this point
that Briar is a lost cause? He's just doing what makes sense to him
without necessarily even having a clue that it makes no sense to you.
Do you really think he deserves to pay with his life for not
understanding you or controlling himself better than he does? If so,
at least a dozen of the dogs I have had in my home would have been put
down instead of being beloved family dogs. I know they would have
done the same as Briar had they been put in the same position, not
because they were bad dogs or dangerous dogs or untrustworthy dogs,
but because they didn't know any better and we didn't have the
relationship yet.

But once I had built that relationship (which took consistent effort
over time), I could call off even my very dog aggressive dog with just
my voice. She wouldn't start anything even with a dog who was really
pissing her off and she stopped retaliating when she was attacked as
soon as I told her to. But it was because she knew I would handle the
situation and protect her so she didn't need to protect herself and
that there would be huge payoffs from doing things my way instead of
her way because she had seen that happen in a million different ways
day in and day out. Knowing that I wouldn't stand for her not obeying
me was only a small part of it. If that's all there was, I doubt it
would have worked since she could take me down, too, if she really
wanted to push it. You don't even have that under your belt at this
point, though, since Briar doesn't know that you won't allow
disobedience any more than he is clear on what is disobedience, what
the payoff will be for him if he does things your way instead of his
or that you will take care of his needs and protect him better than he
can care for himself if he will let you handle it. So please stop
asking him to trust you when you haven't shown him you are
trustworthy, to give up getting his way what he has not yet learned he
can get any other way, to obey rules he hasn't had a chance to learn
yet, and control reactions and urges that he has not learned any tools
for controlling yet or any motivation for controlling yet. Build the
relationship before you test the relationship and don't put him in
situations neither you nor he can handle any more until you know that
both of you can handle it.

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay