On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 23:52:56 -0500, (Judith
Althouse) wrote:

My question is in general for anyone that chooses to
offer an opinion. "Would it be beyond unscrupulous to return him and
indicate he may be dog aggressive"? (leaving out the dog bite part)

You can't return him and say that he is dog aggressive and leave it at
that because it's not helping anyone to be that evasive. It also is
not fair to turn him in with a characterization that he attacked or
bit when in attack mode or is fine except when he is in attack mode as
Lynne has characterized it. The best thing to do would be to be
completely honest and say that the dog does not get along with the
other dog and Lynne was bitten while trying to pull Briar off Roxy by
the collar after a full fight had broken out. That lets them know
that there was a bite so that the dog is not passed along without that
info but that it was a bite while being pulled off from a fight, which
would let dog savvy people know that it was most likely not the dog's
fault and is not a matter of the dog having shown human aggression. At
least there is a chance of the dog not being put down in that case.
From a practical standpoint, however, it is likely not to matter and
the dog will be put down regardless. Dog people know the difference,
but organizations have to worry about what jurors and judges will
think and not just what people who understand dogs will think. There
are enough people out there who see any bite to humans as human
aggression, as Lynne herself has done, that it isn't worth the risk to
a rescue organization that doesn't have deep pockets to begin with. So
the dog gets put down on a not worth risking it basis.

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay

On 20 Nov 2006 20:53:00 -0800, "Sandy in OK"
wrote:

You were concerned about resource
guarding, so instead of approaching it with a plan, you snatched food
out of his mouth to see what would happen.

Actually, that right there weighs heavily in favor of concluding that
Briar would not attack a human. If pushed on his biggest issue in
that in your face way did not get a bite, I don't think anything would
except an accidental bite because he was in the middle of a fight and
not distinguishing human from dog or interloper from attack object. I
wouldn't have tried that with a dog who had shown food guarding
without expecting to get bit. Briar actually seems like a very stable
dog in many ways, seems to be trying to please Lynne to the extent he
can figure out what she wants from him and pretty easygoing with
humans if he can stand having his biggest buttons pushed by one he
barely knows and hasn't built a trusting relationship with. If she had
been bitten while snatching food out of his mouth, Briar would be a
dead dog for sure, yet how many really great dogs would do the same if
pushed in that way on that big an issue by someone that strange to
them in a totally new and strange environment to them? I think at
least 50% of the dogs I have had as fosters or keepers would, and I
think closer to 95% would end up biting a human who grabbed their
collar when they were in full fight mode.

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay

"Tara" wrote in message
.196...
"Sandy in OK" wrote in
oups.com:


Tara wrote:
My only point earlier is that it might have been helpful....indeed even
MORE appropriate....if you had even come close to saying this sort of
thing to Paul who had been setting his dog up in far worse ways over
the course of a lot longer.

To go after Lynne for not being a competent handler when it comes to a
dog that clearly has some guarding issues seems over the top to me.

Paul didn't really take the dog on as a family member, but a foster.

That story changed from week to week, if that helps.

I think I was fully honest and consistent about Muttley, although I did
(and still have) mixed feelings about keeping him. After nine months,
however, I guess he is pretty much a part of my family, for better or
worse.

Was he committed? No. And I think a part of his problem was the makeup
of the class he attended (I know that's not a popular opinion here,
but. . . )

Sure, because he'd already done far more damage than Briar has done
BEFORE ever entering that class....and yet you don't see anything wrong
with taking Lynne to task but only taking on the role of "poor Paul"
cheering section? That's simply unfair.

The only real damage Muttley had done before entering the class was one
quick bite after having been agitated. He did not seem intent on continuing
his aggression, and he calmed down immediately. Even after the incidents at
the classes, he calmed down right away.

I do think this issue is about more than Lynne than being an
incompetent handler, or the dog having resource guarding issues (he
allowed her to snatch food from his mouth without protest)

Reslource guarding with dogs isn't always related to resource guarding
with people. I would think you'd be clear on that.

If it was
just poor Briar going back to the rescue to face his fate, I might not
even say anything. But if Lynne has any intention of trying another
dog, she needs to be aware of her tendency towards self-fulfilling
prophecy.

You are drastically jumping to conclusions based on no information, but
then given that you did the same thing with Paul, I'm seeing a pattern
here. An unfair pattern, but a pattern of your own nonetheless.

It seems that much of the misunderstanding here is caused by people jumping
to conclusions and then elaborating on that, rather than giving benefit of
doubt and trying to understand the real issues and facts. I have learned a
lot from reading this ng, but mostly I can see that there are many
viewpoints and methods with strong opinions and a variety of experiences.

I think it is important to get to know the dog, and learn to identify what
he is trying to tell you, as well as expecting him to obey your commands.
Muttley is still a brat, but I feel that I can trust him in many ways, and
he seems to respect me.

When I first looked at the photo of Briar, I thought I saw something
disturbing in his eyes. Of course, that was only one instance, but if a
look like that persisted, I would feel uncomfortable. I have seen a bit of
that look in Muttley sometimes, usually when he is agitated or when he
really wants to go out. Once he has settled down, his look is much more
calm and friendly. He also has a rather cold, aloof look when he first
meets someone new, and he displays signs of being fearful, so those who
correctly read such signs know to be careful. I think a dog who has
probably been abused in the past may have learned to act this way as a
means of survival, and it may take a long time to change this part of his
personality if it can be changed at all. Muttley is much less outwardly
friendly than most other dogs I have known. I did see a bit of this trait
in a friend's half-wolf, who was nice enough, but always had that bit of a
faraway feral look that commanded respect and caution.

I wish you the best of luck, Lynne.

Paul

In article ,
Lynne wrote:
Is it normal for the dog's aggression to be redirected toward a human when
the human has taken him under physical control?

I wouldn't usually call it "aggression" in that
circumstance. He's wired for the fight and isn't
necessarily being as attentive as he should. To the extent
that it's a form of aggression it would be displacement
aggression.

The collar grabbing was instinctual. It all happened so fast... All I
could think was "protect Roxy."

One thing that helped with Saber's fighting problem was
teaching all of the dogs that anybody who fights, regardless
of who starts it, dies a premature death. It takes (at
least!) two to fight.

It was awful when my dogs fought. It felt hopeless and just
awful, so I have some idea what you're feeling right now.
One thing that helped was to keep a record of what happened
and when and how it started. I just scratched a few words
on a wall calendar - no big deal. It helped me realize that
this wasn't a chronic problem, that nobody was trying to
kill anybody (cf. Ian Dunbar's stuff), and that it was going
to be okay in the long run.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

In article ,
Paul E. Schoen wrote:
When I first looked at the photo of Briar, I thought I saw something
disturbing in his eyes.

Oh, shut up. You know squat about dogs, you mishandled
yours, and now you're stirring up trouble with one you've
never met? What the hell is wrong with you?
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

Paul E. Schoen wrote:

I think I was fully honest and consistent about Muttley, although I did
(and still have) mixed feelings about keeping him. After nine months,
however, I guess he is pretty much a part of my family, for better or
worse.

If you have mixed feelings about keeping him, then I wouldn't define
him as a part of your family. As for honesty, you may not have
intended to lie, but your descriptions of events were inconsistent
from one telling to the next. And, by your own admission, you
embroidered and embellished and exaggerated, presumably for maximum
effect. As a result, I find it difficult to believe anything you say.

The only real damage Muttley had done before entering the class was one
quick bite after having been agitated. He did not seem intent on continuing
his aggression, and he calmed down immediately. Even after the incidents at
the classes, he calmed down right away.

Personally, I'd find that *much* more worrisome than a dog whose
aggression trigger appears to be easily predictable and who is not,
apparently, actually aggressive toward humans.

When I first looked at the photo of Briar, I thought I saw something
disturbing in his eyes.

You have friggin' *got* to be kidding. Do yourself and everyone
else a favor, and keep your bullshit pop psycho-babble to yourself,
okay? Spreading that sort of bozotic nonsense around will not do
anyone any favors, least of all Bailey and Muttley.

--
Shelly (Warning: see label for details)
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

Melinda Shore wrote:

Oh, shut up. You know squat about dogs, you mishandled
yours, and now you're stirring up trouble with one you've
never met? What the hell is wrong with you?

I'm guessing there's a spot with his name on it somewhere along the
Munchausen by Proxy spectrum.

--
Shelly (Warning: see label for details)
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

In article ,
shelly wrote:
I'm guessing there's a spot with his name on it somewhere along the
Munchausen by Proxy spectrum.

In certain ways I'm kind of old-fashioned, so I'm more
inclined to stick with "attention freak."
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

"Melinda Shore" wrote in message
...
I like to sing or hum or something
while I've got the dog - it helps regulate *my* breathing
and just generally bring the temperature down. I find "The
Girl From Ipanema" works like a charm.

The Stan Getz, Joao Gilberto, Astrud Gilberto version?

Man, I loved that!

Judy

In article ,
Judy wrote:
The Stan Getz, Joao Gilberto, Astrud Gilberto version?
Man, I loved that!

The Melinda Shore version. It's not so good, but at least
it makes the dogs laugh.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community