and it would have been more if I hadn't gotten a hold of him...

For the past few days I've been giving Roxy and Briar kibbles as rewards
side by side. I've been giving them simultaneously since yesterday,
instead of to Roxy first and then Briar. I've seen absolutely no sign of
problems, just two happy dogs following commands for bites of kibble.
But tonight, Briar turned on Roxy and attacked her again. I told him no,
which usually stops him in his tracks, but not this time. So I went to
grab his collar and he turned on me, snarling and growling. He bit me
twice before I got him under control. I got him by the collar, lifted
his front legs at least a foot in the air, and he was snarling and
fighting to get at me. I tossed him outside and shut the door. He
continued snarling and lunged at the glass a few times while I stood
there. Then he ran around the yard barking ferociously for a good 2
minutes.

I don't know if this is my fault or not, for rushing things, but I can't
keep him now that I know he is willing to attack me. I have to think it
was in his nature anyway and I triggered it. I'm just not willing to
keep a dog who will attack people. Myself, I can handle it, but my kids
and their friends, other people--no way. That's an unmanigeable
situation for our lifestyle.

My daughter and I can't stop crying. Damn. Two strikes. This sucks.
When he's not in attack mode, he's the sweetest damn dog.

--
Lynne


"Every once in a while, the tables are turned and we get to share our
lives with an animal who takes care of their human." - Tara, rpdb

In article ,
Lynne wrote:
He bit me twice before I got him under control.

Being bitten while breaking up a dog fight has, I think,
happened to most of us who have ever broken up dog fights,
and it's generally been otherwise really nice dogs who've
done it. The worst problems happen during the so-called
"honeymoon period," when the dogs don't really have a handle
on just how permanent the situation might be. I'd 1) take a
deep breath, 2) get over it, and 3) be a *heck* of a lot
more careful about how you handle high-value goodies around
the dogs while they're together.

Dog bites hurt like a son of a bitch. Should you find
yourself having to break up a dog fight again, stay away
from heads and collars and go for the back end. I've had to
deal with a chronic fighter and what I've found works best
is to pick someone up by the back legs and hold him until he
calms down. Don't grab him by the tail - it can injure the
spine and besides the dog will still be able to bite you.
Do *not* let go too soon - the dog doesn't get four on the
floor until he's calm. A dog that's still amped up is
likely to re-attack. I like to sing or hum or something
while I've got the dog - it helps regulate *my* breathing
and just generally bring the temperature down. I find "The
Girl From Ipanema" works like a charm.

And no matter what anybody tells you, don't stick your thumb
up the dog's butt.

You might want to call in a behaviorist to watch the dogs
interact and to watch you interact with the dogs.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

Lynne wrote:
and it would have been more if I hadn't gotten a hold of him...

For the past few days I've been giving Roxy and Briar kibbles as rewards
side by side. I've been giving them simultaneously since yesterday,
instead of to Roxy first and then Briar. I've seen absolutely no sign of
problems, just two happy dogs following commands for bites of kibble.
But tonight, Briar turned on Roxy and attacked her again. I told him no,
which usually stops him in his tracks, but not this time. So I went to
grab his collar and he turned on me, snarling and growling. He bit me
twice before I got him under control. I got him by the collar, lifted
his front legs at least a foot in the air, and he was snarling and
fighting to get at me. I tossed him outside and shut the door. He
continued snarling and lunged at the glass a few times while I stood
there. Then he ran around the yard barking ferociously for a good 2
minutes.

I don't know if this is my fault or not, for rushing things, but I can't
keep him now that I know he is willing to attack me. I have to think it
was in his nature anyway and I triggered it. I'm just not willing to
keep a dog who will attack people. Myself, I can handle it, but my kids
and their friends, other people--no way. That's an unmanigeable
situation for our lifestyle.

My daughter and I can't stop crying. Damn. Two strikes. This sucks.
When he's not in attack mode, he's the sweetest damn dog.

--
Lynne


"Every once in a while, the tables are turned and we get to share our
lives with an animal who takes care of their human." - Tara, rpdb

Lynne,
I am so sorry that you were bitten and of course that the new dog
behaved as he did.
I know I am giving my sage advice after the fact, but I really hope
you can give Briar a little more time before giving him up. I am by no
means excusing his behavior but I would not be quite so eager to unite
the two dogs. Certainly not to the point of playing with food side by
side since you have already had issues about the bone.
Don't be offended, but maybe you should get a game plan about how you
are going to introduce your current dog and a newcomer before you get
the next newcomer if it comes to that.
I would really like to see things work with this dog. However I am
not the one that got bitten. I know you have the best of intentions but
by your own admission giving them bones was a mistake and then when
things appear to calm down you do the side by side kibble play. I am
sure this dog is unstable in his new home and with good reason it is all
new to him. I am not excusing his behavior. I just think food and toys
can be a recipe for trouble in dogs that are stable in their
surroundings. He never had a chance IMO. I repeat, I am not the one
with children or the one that got bitten and this dog may not be
salvagable.
I admit they are sometimes at a rescue group because of a problem that
can't or hasn't been resolved, not always just because someone didn't
want Spot anymore.
I freely admit I am not an experienced dog trainer but I know enough
to know if you keep bringing dogs in to your environment that have such
awful consequences your daughter may come to fear dogs generally.
I am not professing this to be the correct way to do it, but it has
worked for me and that is to take plenty of time introducing them and as
had been said before, exercise them lots!!!
I am not judging you, just trying to offer some help.


Be Free.....Judy

Melinda,
I think the advice you gave Lynne was right on!
I appreciate your advice about how to (endure) break up a dog fight.
You suggested holding their back legs and trying to remain calm. You
even suggested singing "The Girl from Ipanema". You are the brave
one!!!! Every tme I hear that song, I am going to think of fighting
dogs
I was bitten once in a dog fight long ago, still got the scar on my
hand to remind me.
I think you are dead on when you describe trouble happening during the
honeymoon period when the new dog is not really sure of his status.


Be Free.....Judy

Lynne wrote:
and it would have been more if I hadn't gotten a hold of him...

For the past few days I've been giving Roxy and Briar kibbles as rewards
side by side. I've been giving them simultaneously since yesterday,
instead of to Roxy first and then Briar. I've seen absolutely no sign of
problems, just two happy dogs following commands for bites of kibble.
But tonight, Briar turned on Roxy and attacked her again. I told him no,
which usually stops him in his tracks, but not this time. So I went to
grab his collar and he turned on me, snarling and growling. He bit me
twice before I got him under control. I got him by the collar, lifted
his front legs at least a foot in the air, and he was snarling and
fighting to get at me. I tossed him outside and shut the door. He
continued snarling and lunged at the glass a few times while I stood
there. Then he ran around the yard barking ferociously for a good 2
minutes.

Sigh. It's pretty likely that if you grab the collar of a dog who's
engaged in a fight with another dog, you are likely to receive at least
one "stupid" bite. At that point they are full of adrenaline and not
likely to be able to be careful with their mouths. And it's sad that by
setting this dog up for failure (insisting on too much too soon) you've
probably cost him his life. Mostly when a dog is returned for biting
humans, that is a dead dog. Even if the bite was due to the human
making a serious error in judgment. I hate to say it, but it seems like
you've been trying to create an issue with this dog since you brought
him home. I hope you'll stick with the one dog you have, and not set
another dog up to fail. Sadly, Sandy in OK

"Sandy in OK" wrote in
oups.com:


Lynne wrote:
and it would have been more if I hadn't gotten a hold of him...

For the past few days I've been giving Roxy and Briar kibbles as
rewards side by side. I've been giving them simultaneously since
yesterday, instead of to Roxy first and then Briar. I've seen
absolutely no sign of problems, just two happy dogs following
commands for bites of kibble. But tonight, Briar turned on Roxy and
attacked her again. I told him no, which usually stops him in his
tracks, but not this time. So I went to grab his collar and he
turned on me, snarling and growling. He bit me twice before I got
him under control. I got him by the collar, lifted his front legs at
least a foot in the air, and he was snarling and fighting to get at
me. I tossed him outside and shut the door. He continued snarling
and lunged at the glass a few times while I stood there. Then he ran
around the yard barking ferociously for a good 2 minutes.

Sigh. It's pretty likely that if you grab the collar of a dog who's
engaged in a fight with another dog, you are likely to receive at
least one "stupid" bite. At that point they are full of adrenaline and
not likely to be able to be careful with their mouths. And it's sad
that by setting this dog up for failure (insisting on too much too
soon) you've probably cost him his life. Mostly when a dog is returned
for biting humans, that is a dead dog. Even if the bite was due to the
human making a serious error in judgment. I hate to say it, but it
seems like you've been trying to create an issue with this dog since
you brought him home. I hope you'll stick with the one dog you have,
and not set another dog up to fail. Sadly, Sandy in OK

And I caught grief for pointing out to Paul that he'd been doing this
*for months*, but its ok to say this after two days of a newbie owner
making mistakes?

I don't see this.

Tara

on Tue, 21 Nov 2006 01:04:03 GMT, (Melinda Shore) wrote:

Being bitten while breaking up a dog fight has, I think,
happened to most of us who have ever broken up dog fights,
and it's generally been otherwise really nice dogs who've
done it

Is it normal for the dog's aggression to be redirected toward a human when
the human has taken him under physical control? The 2 bites he gave me
were definitely a result of my stupidity, however even after I had him
under physical control, he was literally trying to spin to get at me and
bite me again. I've only ever broken up one other dog fight and neither
dog went for either of us. Briar lunging at the glass toward me was
freaky, too. I just don't know what to make of this.

The collar grabbing was instinctual. It all happened so fast... All I
could think was "protect Roxy."

--
Lynne


"Every once in a while, the tables are turned and we get to share our lives
with an animal who takes care of their human." - Tara, rpdb

on Tue, 21 Nov 2006 03:51:52 GMT, "Sandy in OK" wrote:

I hate to say it, but it seems like
you've been trying to create an issue with this dog since you brought
him home.

uh, certainly not intentionally. I'm here asking for advice and trying to
understand and follow it.

--
Lynne


"Every once in a while, the tables are turned and we get to share our lives
with an animal who takes care of their human." - Tara, rpdb

Sandy in Ok
I have the same feeling you have when you said "it seems like you have
been trying to create an issue with this dog since you brought him
home".
I know Lynne was eager for Briar to fit in and for things to work out
but there are some things that are just asking for disaster even in a
good dog or what could be a good dog. The questions Lynne asked and the
behavior she exhibited about introducing the 2nd new dog indicate to me
she may be better off being a one dog family at this time.
There are always two ways of looking at things and it is possible she
will have caused his death (not intentionally of course) but by her
inadvertent mistakes. The other option being the dog was not salvagable
in anyone's home and would have been put to death anyway. Sad for
everyone involved.


Be Free.....Judy