On 3 Jan 2007 08:13:12 -0800, "Snackle" , clicked
their heels and said:

she will not be
in the house forever...she will be an outside dog.....but is obviously
too small at this time.

Be prepared for posts on the down sides of outdoor dogs. I'm not
quite clear, but do you have other dogs she will be spending her time
with?

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

Thanks....I will start right away....I will contact the vets office and
see if there is anyone in our town that does that sort of thing...if
not I will definately start tonight with the changes that need to be
made. My point on e-mailing was for advise and I definately got
that......I will take this and move forward....I don't want her to be
unhappy....and my husband WILL help with these efforts....you can BET
on that......we have a small toddler and three other animals.....he
will NEED to help with this.
Janet B wrote:
On 3 Jan 2007 08:06:43 -0800, "Snackle" , clicked
their heels and said:

First of all I appreciate the advice and will definately do what I
can.....but it is unfair for you to judge that I do not take the time
with my puppy......

I'm sorry, but it's not. Puppies can't just be put in a box for 8
hours. They're a big commitment and one that not everyone can take
on.

..we do not live in some big city that we can just
hire someone to be there with her during the day....we live in a tiny
town prractically in the middle of nowhere and in fact don't know many
people there especially ones who will stop over and let her out for
us.......

I bet if you called your vet's office, they may be able to point you
in the direction of someone you can HIRE. Petsitters exist a lot of
places, you'd be surprised. That's probably a good first attempt, but
if you have a local shelter, they may know too.

and we DO definately give her LOTS and LOTS of attention and
we praise her also we love our animals and certainly woudn't want to do
anything that wasn't in their best interests......

Your words were "we let her out", not "we take her out and make sure
she eliminates and praise her". The first doesn't get you very far
with housebreaking, while the second one does. You want to be
successful, so it's important to do whatever you can to make it so!

....as far as an
x-pen area....I am not even sure what that is unless it is just a fancy
term for a pen or exercise pen...???.....but would love to look into
something like that......if I could have a suggestion as to what type
of pen I should use for a dog who is growing like a weed and will not
be a small dog for long that would be super I would look into
that.......

X-pen is shorthand for exercise pen. You can buy them from many
online retailers. I personally would get the tallest and largest
possible - it can always be made smaller if needed, and can comform to
space. It's still not ideal, but it's better than a crate for 8
hours.

But we are NOT irresponsible...we just don't have the
resourses available and weren't prepared (or at least I wasn't) for a
puppy...

That says it all. Resources and preparedness are pretty huge when it
comes to bringing a living being into your life! One of the regulars
here had a surprise litter of puppies recently. Preparedness didn't
exist. She got into gear pretty fast though, to give those puppies
everything they need. Puppies need us to provide what they need. Not
always simple or convenient, but necessary!

.my husband just brought her home from a business trip...and I
am left to find solutions on what to do for her.......

Is *HE* helping with any of those solutions? ARGHHH - surprises are
such bad ideas so much of the time.

We live in a
cold climate so she isn't left outside for long periods of time and she
is often too cold to do her business probably....I will however do
better about monitoring her out there and will work to praise her
more...,..

That's essential. Take her out on leash (even if you have a fenced
yard). She needs to learn to eliminate first, play later. It can be
tough for a pup who has already learned to do the latter, but if you
are consistent, she'll get the hang of it. I generally give 5
minutes, then come back in and keep her with you for 5-10 minutes and
try again. She gets no freedom until she eliminates, when you know
she should need to (a benefit of meal scheduling). I would usually
say you can use the crate for this, but since she's already developed
her habit of eliminating in there, I would use a leash or gated or
closed doors.

.I think we have started this off by you getting the wrong
picture in your head about me....I am not like those scums on animal
planet that torture their animals.....we really do love them......which
is why I am seeking advice!!!

I don't think your scum and don't think you torture animals. But your
puppy needs an awful lot more than she's getting, so feedings,
outings, exercise, supervision, companionship - all of those things
are things you can change and make better, if you put forth the
effort. She's counting on you!

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

On 3 Jan 2007 08:33:15 -0800, "Snackle" , clicked
their heels and said:

Thanks....I will start right away....I will contact the vets office and
see if there is anyone in our town that does that sort of thing...if
not I will definately start tonight with the changes that need to be
made.

Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress! Any pictures of this
little girl?

and my husband WILL help with these efforts....you can BET
on that......we have a small toddler and three other animals.....he
will NEED to help with this.

You bet! And all of your housebreaking efforts are good training for
upcoming toilet training!


--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

Yes we have another outdoor dog.......one of the reasons for my husband
getting the puppy apparently was so that our lab had a companion out
there...she is five years old....and I can understand that reasoning of
getting her a companion.......she gets taken out daily of the kennel
area and played with/ walked etc.......we used to have her in the house
but she got to the point where she just didn't want to be in..she has a
ton of energy....we have an insulated dog house with large kennel for
her outside....she has a lot of space out there. Our other two dogs
are housedogs and housetrained and have the run of the main floor of
our house durning the day...and also get out regularly as well.....they
were easy to train....but for some reason I have always struggled with
the bigger dogs....
Janet B wrote:
On 3 Jan 2007 08:13:12 -0800, "Snackle" , clicked
their heels and said:

she will not be
in the house forever...she will be an outside dog.....but is obviously
too small at this time.

Be prepared for posts on the down sides of outdoor dogs. I'm not
quite clear, but do you have other dogs she will be spending her time
with?

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

"Snackle" wrote in news:1167842470.360775.258360
@a3g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:

Yes we have another outdoor dog.......one of the reasons for my
husband
getting the puppy apparently was so that our lab had a companion out
there...she is five years old....and I can understand that reasoning
of
getting her a companion.......she gets taken out daily of the kennel
area and played with/ walked etc.......we used to have her in the
house
but she got to the point where she just didn't want to be in..she has
a
ton of energy....we have an insulated dog house with large kennel for
her outside....she has a lot of space out there. Our other two dogs
are housedogs and housetrained and have the run of the main floor of
our house durning the day...and also get out regularly as
well.....they
were easy to train....but for some reason I have always struggled with
the bigger dogs....

I'm struggling with how to approach this. You are clearly a person who
cares about the well being of the animals in her life, and yet its
equially clear that they aren't getting what they need.

All dogs require concentrated exercise and training. Small or large,
they all *need* it for their well being. Where the big differences come
in is that in small dogs, the problems that arise from not doing what
they need tend to be forgiven by the humans involved (because they are
small, the resulting behaviors are less intrusive), while in the bigger
dogs, the results of not giving them sufficient *concentrated* exercise
and training cause them to be banished from the house. Honestly, your
Lab didn't need another dog to be thrown out there with her, she needed
a human in the house to take responsibility for her mental and physical
requirements. I really (really!) don't mean to bash, and like I said,
you sound like a person who cares about her dogs. But the way you feel
about your dogs needs to be weighed against the care they are actually
*receiving*.....as it seems like there's unfortunately a big disconnect
between the two.

Its interesting. I just had a debate with a friend I hadn't seen in
years who had called me asking for training advice with his new puppy.
By the time we finally got to speak, he had gotten rid of the puppy. He
works long hours, but really wanted a dog. His wife isn't really
equipped to handle a dog (barely wants one, is semi afraid of them, but
willing to do *some* things to overcome her challenges). She only wanted
a smaller dog that she felt she could handle. He wanted a Pit puppy he
saw at an adoption event. Since he was the one that *wanted* a dog, he
decided that he "won" and got the Pit baby. However, The *wife* was the
one who was doing most of the hands-on care of the pup. The *wife* was
doing most of the exercising, handling, and (therefore) training of the
pup. And she was right: she was simply not up to the task of a dog with
those kinds of mental and physical needs. Within a month, the pup was
returned to the rescue....but not before developing some realy crappy
behaviors.

My friend has decided that this puppy was just not the right fit and was
just too intense. He insists that if he finds another pup, things will
go well. I was almost happy about him seeing reason until he said "I'm
waiting for my favorite kind of dog. I've always wanted a Cattle Dog, so
I'm going to either buy one of those or adopt one"

Gah!

That's when the "debate" started. A dog that requires a ton of exercise
and mental stimulation (i.e. Training) NEEDS those things. They are not
optional. Those needs can't be turned on and off because the human needs
to go do something else for a few days. I told him it was unfair to
expect his wife to address the needs of a dog like that when she was
very upfront about not wanting to, and about not being able to. His
response was "I know, I'll handle all of that. She won't have to do a
thing". Yeah right. So for the 9 hours he's at work everyday, they'll
just access the puppy's Off switch?

It just doesn't work that way. The only Off switch that a puppy (or a
dog, for that matter) has is the one accessed by taking them out, going
for a good long run (or play session), followed by a hike, followed by a
good training session. That'll buy you several hours of mellow and
no/low maintenance in a young pup. To expect the off switch to just
happen because you need it to is unfair....and its why so many dogs end
up exiled to the garage/basement/backyard, or dropped of in shelters,
IMO.

Ok, while this rant was in response to your post, it wasn't directed
solely at you *personally*. You happened to trigger what is a point of
frustration for me, and that in turn triggered this rant. With that
said, I think there are some choices you might need to make here. One of
them might be returning the puppy (or finding it a more appropriate
home) and putting that energy into the dog you already have living by
herself in the backyard. The energy it takes to properly train a puppy
could be spent exercising and training your 5 year old Lab to be a
mamber of your household. Or, you could exile *two* dogs outside and
leave it at that, I suppose....but I really don't like that choice. I
think its unfair not only to this new puppy, but to the dog you already
gave up on.

There are lots of ways to work through this. I really hope you stick
around and access the information that could help you do it. You may
have to grow some thick skin, as there are plenty of people who will
have problems with some of the choices you've made, but if you're
willing to listen, let the more blatant nastiness go (while trying to
glean the gems that still may be in those posts), and put some energy
into changing some things, you could maybe end up welcoming your not-so-
old Lab back into the family, rather than trying to raise a puppy to be
forced company for an exiled old friend.

Tara

"Snackle" wrote in news:1167838885.015077.293810@
42g2000cwt.googlegroups.com:

We keep her in there during the day which is a long
stretch of 8 hours because we can';t run home at our lunch hour...so we
are understanding that she is messing in there during the day....but
the evenings is when we are concerned because she is let out
periodically and goes outside and as soon as she is put in her kennel
minutes later sometimes she has messed.

There's your problem. As you have been letting her be in her crate all
day and she has to mess in there, it has desensitized her to soiling in
her den and convinced her that it is fine to mess in there. It may even
seem like the right place to go. If you are going to be gone that long
during the day and have a little puppy, you need to have someone come in
during that time and let the puppy out. They can't hold it that long. If
one of you can't come home on a lunch break, look for a dog walker, a
neighbor or a doggie day care. It is going to be a disaster to raise a
dog in a kennel all day and all night with just a little time out for
more reasons than just the pottying in the crate problem.

Paula

Tara wrote:

snippage

My friend has decided that this puppy was just not the right fit and was
just too intense. He insists that if he finds another pup, things will
go well. I was almost happy about him seeing reason until he said "I'm
waiting for my favorite kind of dog. I've always wanted a Cattle Dog, so
I'm going to either buy one of those or adopt one"

He's going to need a new wife. Or a different, less time-intensive job.
Or maybe he'll learn to enjoy living in a crater full of former-furniture
and bits of drywall, with a dog that both makes and enforces its own house
rules. 'Cause those are his options, even with an adult ACD.

Speaking of ACDs, I'm worried about Ranger. Nothing I can point to,
specifically, but the boy just ain't quite right the last few days. Very
clingy, lots of sighs. But his temp's normal, his breathing is normal, his
color is normal, he's eating with his usual gusto, and as active as ever.
I know if there's something seriously wrong and I miss the opportunity to
catch it early, I'll be kicking myself. Then again, what's the likelihood
of my vet being able to diagnose a vague "Ain't Doin' Right" when I've got
nothing more than an impression to go on?

I will definately keep you posted on any progress........I have my
lists started of what I need to do......I have some solutions in mind
and will let you know how it goes....I am heading to the store at noon
to look for some things for Shadow (that is her name).....yes I have
some photos.......lets see how the heck to I attach those???? I guess
I need computer training too!!!hehehehe!!!
Janet B wrote:
On 3 Jan 2007 08:33:15 -0800, "Snackle" , clicked
their heels and said:

Thanks....I will start right away....I will contact the vets office and
see if there is anyone in our town that does that sort of thing...if
not I will definately start tonight with the changes that need to be
made.

Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress! Any pictures of this
little girl?

and my husband WILL help with these efforts....you can BET
on that......we have a small toddler and three other animals.....he
will NEED to help with this.

You bet! And all of your housebreaking efforts are good training for
upcoming toilet training!


--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

Mary Healey wrote in
.4:

Tara wrote:

snippage

My friend has decided that this puppy was just not the right fit and
was just too intense. He insists that if he finds another pup, things
will go well. I was almost happy about him seeing reason until he
said "I'm waiting for my favorite kind of dog. I've always wanted a
Cattle Dog, so I'm going to either buy one of those or adopt one"

He's going to need a new wife. Or a different, less time-intensive
job. Or maybe he'll learn to enjoy living in a crater full of
former-furniture and bits of drywall, with a dog that both makes and
enforces its own house rules. 'Cause those are his options, even with
an adult ACD.

That's pretty much what I told him. I don't think I had any impact,
though. He just wants what he wants, and nothing anyone else can say is
going to change his mind.

Speaking of ACDs, I'm worried about Ranger. Nothing I can point to,
specifically, but the boy just ain't quite right the last few days.
Very clingy, lots of sighs. But his temp's normal, his breathing is
normal, his color is normal, he's eating with his usual gusto, and as
active as ever. I know if there's something seriously wrong and I
miss the opportunity to catch it early, I'll be kicking myself. Then
again, what's the likelihood of my vet being able to diagnose a vague
"Ain't Doin' Right" when I've got nothing more than an impression to
go on?

Hey, as others have said, my vet goes on that all the time. Sometimes
she finds something, occasionally she finds out that I brought a pet in
for a bad case of gas. Either way, she's awesome, and she takes what I
say seriously enough so I never feel stupid about it.

I've found that for those who are really in tune with their pets, that
vaugue "somethine ain't right" is always on target about *something*.
Might be a simple thing that's causing discomfort, or it might be
something that he needs help with....but you've never struck me as a
hypochonriac by proxy, so I'd probably make an appointment.

Tara

"Suja" wrote in
:


"Mary Healey" wrote in message:

Then again, what's the likelihood
of my vet being able to diagnose a vague "Ain't Doin' Right" when
I've got nothing more than an impression to go on?

Mine have always taken my vague observations like that seriously, and
usually been able to figure out what is going on.

That's three votes for "hie thee to the vet" (diddy, Suja, Tara). I've
been sitting here, talking myself out of a visit to Dr. Donna, so it's
helpful to hear that I'm not just being an over-reactive "mommy".

Trust the gut instincts. Check. If he's not back to obnoxious by
tomorrow, we're going to go a-visiting.

I've had friends
give me grief about taking my dogs in when they see just fine, and
then be astounded that there was in fact, something wrong with the
dog. Then again, I don't understand just how it is that raging UTIs,
staph infections, joint problems, etc. can go unnoticed until someone
who doesn't live with the dog points it out.

Heh. One time, Regis-the-horse was just not *quite* right. Well, gait
irregularities weren't unknown to him, but this was more irregular than
his usual "how the hell does he move like that?" ambulations. I looked
him over, didn't see anything. My horse vet looked him over, didn't see
anything. We stood next to him, chatting, trying to brainstorm what
might be the problem. She put a hand on his stifle to look under him
(thinking that his slight off-ness might be a plumbing problem), and
just happened to put her hand on a seroma (probably from a kick) the
size of Texas that conformed exactly to the contour of his stifle joint
and was, therefore, really hard to spot. Once she felt it and pointed
it out to me, it was HUGE and OBVIOUS and how he managed to walk without
limping like an arthritic old man first thing in the morning is one of
the mysteries of the universe.

Sometimes the glaringly obvious gets overlooked when you're too close to
it.