"Mary Healey" wrote in message:

Then again, what's the likelihood
of my vet being able to diagnose a vague "Ain't Doin' Right" when I've got
nothing more than an impression to go on?

Mine have always taken my vague observations like that seriously, and
usually been able to figure out what is going on. I've had friends give me
grief about taking my dogs in when they see just fine, and then be astounded
that there was in fact, something wrong with the dog. Then again, I don't
understand just how it is that raging UTIs, staph infections, joint
problems, etc. can go unnoticed until someone who doesn't live with the dog
points it out.

Suja

Oh Believe me Tara....I have went round and round about this entire
thing with my husband already. In my previous e-mails you will see
that I mentioned I didn't bargain for the puppy and that we already had
one outside....yes I have many many times wished our outside Lab would
be more interactive with us....seems the inside dogs we have get the
most attention.....they have the real cream of the crop in terms of
living conditions. I will break my story down not to make excuses or
to ask for sympathy but only so that you will see it from my point of
view. We moved in to our first home five years ago and recieved our
first puppy as a "house warming" gift from friends of ours......nice
gift huh? We were in no terms ready for a dog at that point as we had
plenty of things to do in our new residence but did not have the heart
to refuse her either....first off because we knew our friends would be
hurt but secondly because she was so damn sweet......My husband trained
it some (not nearly enough) and I exercised it and played with her as
much as i could . Has she had the misfortune of spending too much time
secluded outside in her kennel???? Yes she has and I am READY to make
a change on that end....I can't say that she will be in the house
because it just won't work out for various other reasons not to mention
she really doesn't seem to care for it...she isn't used to it.....but I
am definately ready to give her what she needs.....TLC.....my husband
on the other hand? He loves animals....but expects a ton out of them
(like they should instinctivly hunt on their own with little
training)...etc....or they shouldn't get tired out from the hunt after
five minutes (even though they haven't trained to get ready for
it)....now this isn't a husband bash but it is the way he operates. We
have had more than ONE confrontation on the matter. Our housedogs came
to us as we fell instantly in love with them. Did they make for more
lack of time with our outside dog? yes I suppose but not much because
we weren't out with her much anyhow...(again a bad thing on our
part)...those two like I said are no concern....they have the perfect
life......Now the puppy.....my husband felt that he was READY to train
a dog now so yes instead of working with our other one....he thought a
fresh start would be better. Is this a concern of mine????YOU BET it
is and again it has led to many heated discussions. At this point in
time I have NOW decided that I am going to take action on all ends and
step up to the plate to see that all of our dogs have equal joy of
life.....but I WILL be demanding the same from my husband or ELSE the
puppy will have to go. I REFUSE to see another dog out in a kennel
with little attention.

Also Tara, yes I can see that I will need thick skin on the group
because I am obviously on a site where I am a minority and up until
this point thought I was a good animal person but now feel like scum.
I am willing to make changes though and that is a good thing. But I
tell you what it is going to be awfully hard because my life is already
very full with a toddler and full time job amongst other things.....I
just wish my husband shared the same feelings as I do. I assume there
will be another discussion this evening and this time I am putting down
my foot!!!!
Tara wrote:
"Snackle" wrote in news:1167842470.360775.258360
@a3g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:

Yes we have another outdoor dog.......one of the reasons for my
husband
getting the puppy apparently was so that our lab had a companion out
there...she is five years old....and I can understand that reasoning
of
getting her a companion.......she gets taken out daily of the kennel
area and played with/ walked etc.......we used to have her in the
house
but she got to the point where she just didn't want to be in..she has
a
ton of energy....we have an insulated dog house with large kennel for
her outside....she has a lot of space out there. Our other two dogs
are housedogs and housetrained and have the run of the main floor of
our house durning the day...and also get out regularly as
well.....they
were easy to train....but for some reason I have always struggled with
the bigger dogs....

I'm struggling with how to approach this. You are clearly a person who
cares about the well being of the animals in her life, and yet its
equially clear that they aren't getting what they need.

All dogs require concentrated exercise and training. Small or large,
they all *need* it for their well being. Where the big differences come
in is that in small dogs, the problems that arise from not doing what
they need tend to be forgiven by the humans involved (because they are
small, the resulting behaviors are less intrusive), while in the bigger
dogs, the results of not giving them sufficient *concentrated* exercise
and training cause them to be banished from the house. Honestly, your
Lab didn't need another dog to be thrown out there with her, she needed
a human in the house to take responsibility for her mental and physical
requirements. I really (really!) don't mean to bash, and like I said,
you sound like a person who cares about her dogs. But the way you feel
about your dogs needs to be weighed against the care they are actually
*receiving*.....as it seems like there's unfortunately a big disconnect
between the two.

Its interesting. I just had a debate with a friend I hadn't seen in
years who had called me asking for training advice with his new puppy.
By the time we finally got to speak, he had gotten rid of the puppy. He
works long hours, but really wanted a dog. His wife isn't really
equipped to handle a dog (barely wants one, is semi afraid of them, but
willing to do *some* things to overcome her challenges). She only wanted
a smaller dog that she felt she could handle. He wanted a Pit puppy he
saw at an adoption event. Since he was the one that *wanted* a dog, he
decided that he "won" and got the Pit baby. However, The *wife* was the
one who was doing most of the hands-on care of the pup. The *wife* was
doing most of the exercising, handling, and (therefore) training of the
pup. And she was right: she was simply not up to the task of a dog with
those kinds of mental and physical needs. Within a month, the pup was
returned to the rescue....but not before developing some realy crappy
behaviors.

My friend has decided that this puppy was just not the right fit and was
just too intense. He insists that if he finds another pup, things will
go well. I was almost happy about him seeing reason until he said "I'm
waiting for my favorite kind of dog. I've always wanted a Cattle Dog, so
I'm going to either buy one of those or adopt one"

Gah!

That's when the "debate" started. A dog that requires a ton of exercise
and mental stimulation (i.e. Training) NEEDS those things. They are not
optional. Those needs can't be turned on and off because the human needs
to go do something else for a few days. I told him it was unfair to
expect his wife to address the needs of a dog like that when she was
very upfront about not wanting to, and about not being able to. His
response was "I know, I'll handle all of that. She won't have to do a
thing". Yeah right. So for the 9 hours he's at work everyday, they'll
just access the puppy's Off switch?

It just doesn't work that way. The only Off switch that a puppy (or a
dog, for that matter) has is the one accessed by taking them out, going
for a good long run (or play session), followed by a hike, followed by a
good training session. That'll buy you several hours of mellow and
no/low maintenance in a young pup. To expect the off switch to just
happen because you need it to is unfair....and its why so many dogs end
up exiled to the garage/basement/backyard, or dropped of in shelters,
IMO.

Ok, while this rant was in response to your post, it wasn't directed
solely at you *personally*. You happened to trigger what is a point of
frustration for me, and that in turn triggered this rant. With that
said, I think there are some choices you might need to make here. One of
them might be returning the puppy (or finding it a more appropriate
home) and putting that energy into the dog you already have living by
herself in the backyard. The energy it takes to properly train a puppy
could be spent exercising and training your 5 year old Lab to be a
mamber of your household. Or, you could exile *two* dogs outside and
leave it at that, I suppose....but I really don't like that choice. I
think its unfair not only to this new puppy, but to the dog you already
gave up on.

There are lots of ways to work through this. I really hope you stick
around and access the information that could help you do it. You may
have to grow some thick skin, as there are plenty of people who will
have problems with some of the choices you've made, but if you're
willing to listen, let the more blatant nastiness go (while trying to
glean the gems that still may be in those posts), and put some energy
into changing some things, you could maybe end up welcoming your not-so-
old Lab back into the family, rather than trying to raise a puppy to be
forced company for an exiled old friend.

Tara

Mary Healey wrote in
.4:



Sometimes the glaringly obvious gets overlooked when you're too close
to
it.

Totally true.

Just went through this (in a different way) with the Cat of Bitchiness
JJ. She was slightly more cranky than usual for a few days. She was
visiting the cat box a little bit more often (she's still a wee bit
obsessed with the concept of indoor cat "plumbing" though anyway, so it
was hard to tell. She's not terribly friendly, and there are only one or
two times a day when I have "permission" to Touch The Goddess. So, that
those times were shortened from one minute at a time, to 30 seconds
didn't immediately signal a major problem. The last sign was that she
stopped sleeping on the foot of my bed and spent the night in the
bathroom. I made the vet appointment feeling kind of stupid about it.
Turned out she had a really uncomfortable UTI, which we dealt with. She
was also having some ulcerations around her vaginal area (hell, if she
was a NICE cat, I still wouldn't be pulling the fat folds open to check
that are regularly....and I'm certainly not chancing that with the stray
biatch).

A couple weeks of antibiotics and ass regualr ass washing later and she
was much better, but still not quite "right" (plus now she HATED me), so
back she went. Since we had already done urine culture and bloodwork, Dr
Bonnie picked Xrays and a sonogram (didn't charge for the latter.....one
of the many reasons I ove that lady) and found a fair amount of
constipated impaction. Not full blockage, but enough to be
uncomfortable. Two days of enemas at the vet's, more ass washing and a
week of Metamucil (why do I have pets again?) and she was not only back
to her old self, but so happy about feeling better that she gave me two
free days of actual lubbin'. Lucky me!

And I've said many times, with Finn I was so used to seeing him unwell,
that if I had been able to see him with "new" eyes, I probably would
have released him a few months sooner than I did.

We can only guess at what's going on with them, no matter how intimately
we understand their behaviors. We do the best we can, and some of us
wear the "Nervous Nellie" badges at the vets and don't care who knows it
:-)

Let us know how he's doing.

Tara

Mary Healey wrote in
.4:

Then again, what's the likelihood
of my vet being able to diagnose a vague "Ain't Doin' Right" when I've
got nothing more than an impression to go on?


I once took my cat to the vet because he "didn't smell normal" -- it
wasn't anything anyone else would notice -- and he turned out to have an
upper-respiratory tract infection (without other symptoms other than a
bit of lethargy). So sometimes they can find the cause. I'd trust my
instincts if I were you.

--
Catherine
& Zoe the cockerchow
& Queenie the black gold retriever
& Max the Pomeranian
& Rosalie the calico cat

Mary Healey wrote in
.4:

Then again, what's the likelihood
of my vet being able to diagnose a vague "Ain't Doin' Right"
when I've got nothing more than an impression to go on?

Probably not good, but I've gone to the vet with no more than that.
"She's just not right," got me raised eyebrows in the front office,
but she *wasn't* right.

I hope it's all a figment of your imagination!

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely
improbable lacks.
-- Douglas Adams

Mary Healey wrote in
.4:

Trust the gut instincts. Check. If he's not back to obnoxious
by tomorrow, we're going to go a-visiting.

Good! At worst, you'll be a little poorer, but it's well worth the
peace of mind. Hopefully, it'll be nothing, but you'd be unhappy
with yourself if you found out it was something.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

You can't be at the pole and the equator at the same time.
-- Vincent van Gogh

Mary Healey wrote in
.4:

Speaking of ACDs, I'm worried about Ranger. Nothing I can point to,
specifically, but the boy just ain't quite right the last few days.
Very clingy, lots of sighs.

Unrequited love?

Paula

"Snackle" wrote in news:1167851568.655099.228860@
48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com:

Also Tara, yes I can see that I will need thick skin on the group
because I am obviously on a site where I am a minority and up until
this point thought I was a good animal person but now feel like scum.
I am willing to make changes though and that is a good thing. But I
tell you what it is going to be awfully hard because my life is already
very full with a toddler and full time job amongst other things.....I
just wish my husband shared the same feelings as I do. I assume there
will be another discussion this evening and this time I am putting down
my foot!!!!

Don't think people here think you are awful. If you were arguing that it
was great to bring in dogs and then throw them outside by themselves or
else keep them in crates all day and night, people would be wondering
about you. But I don't think any of us started out as pet owner of the
year. I know for sure I didn't. I didn't know any better. Once I
learned, I did better. That's what we care most about. Are you willing
to learn better and do better? It sounds like you are, so that's fine
with me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Husbands are hard. Often they are harder than kids because they don't
listen as well! But your husband does have to either step up to the
plate or let this dog go to a different home. As you have seen, the long
hours of kenneling are just creating a messy crate problem. The
behavioral problems will get worse, not better. While the puppy is still
really young, he has a better chance of finding a new home. If you wait
until he is older to decide you just can't put up with all the trouble of
a puppy with your current lifestyles (and no judgment there, I have
decided I never want a puppy in my house again because it's just too
hard), the dog will pay the price. As will your marriage as you clean up
the messes of a dog that your husband wanted and get more and more
resentful. Having a young child just makes it harder because you have
two little creatures that are too dependent on you and not very well
trained to stay out of trouble if left on their own.

Maybe you could get an adult dog. In fact, given your husband's
intentions and expectations, perhaps he could be talked into an older dog
that already has some training. Check places like petfinder.com for dogs
that are adults, so they can hold it longer and aren't going to go
through teething stages. If they are already housebroken and have some
house manners, which many of them are because many of them are being
fostered in homes, you can have the dog in with the house dogs right off
the bat. You can let the dog out to play with the lab and in the
meantime work on making the lab more able to come in more often, but at
least then you only have one dog to work on. Make your husband clean out
the messy kennel that "his" dog is creating and perhaps he'll think it
over even sooner. As long as he doesn't have to pay the price of his
decision, he's not likely to change his mind. Would you? But the longer
this goes, the worse it will be for all involved.

Paula

Thank you for your comments. Last night was a good night with our
puppy. When I got home I laid down some ground rules for my husband in
regards to ALL the dogs. We spent lots of time with our older lab
giving her lots of TLC and also with the other dogs and puppy. We
found a nice area in the house and boxed it off for the puppy so that
she could have a lot of room to play/sleep and eat during the
night....there is absolutely nothing she can hurt in this area so it
worked out fabulously....why we didn't think of it earlier???? Who
knows!!! We have decided that we will make an effort to drive home
once a day to let her out of the area so that she can go outside we
will be sacrificing our entire lunch hour and fighting icy roads but
that is what we must do so we will do it....I called several places
around the area and could find nobody interested in the task. It is
differnent in this area....we don't have dog parks or dog
sitters...other than a couple of kennels which are 10-20 miles
away......we are originally from a little larger area in MN and there
they do have all those things but in this small town USA they just
don't have those things for animals. Although our hope is that come
summer when kids are out of school we can find someone (a teenager) who
is willing to go over to our house and play with our pets during the
day.

We stricly brought our puppy out on a leashe every 2 hours or more and
she was extremely good about eliminating during that time and she got
lots of praise in the mean time. She cuddled with me and the others on
the couch for a period and we played a lot both inside and outside. We
have been lucky this winter that we have had a mild one so that we can
be outside. Tonight the plan is to go for a long walk with our outside
lab (we both need the exercise) and then do lots of playing with all
the pups. This is definately going to be a lifestyle change for all of
us but one that will be a lot of fun too. We will have lots and lots
of enjoyment from all four of our pets they are all extremely sweet and
well mannered. Our outside lab was thrilled last night to spend so
much time with us and will benefit the most from our changes....I won't
even be opposed to having her in the house if she wants to........she
needs a good grooming also so I am going to work on that tonight as
well. We are going to step up to the plate and be good doggie parents.
Not to mention we want our little girl to learn the PROPER way to care
for animals. She is two and loves her puppies so we want her to be
good with all of them too. We have seen children who kick at animals
and are mean to them and we certainly do not find that acceptable and
would never want our child to do that.

I think I really needed an awakening from you guys and I got that.
The whole puppy thing....I think that we got so used to the way it was
with our other dogs that we forgot all the extra work that goes into
it....I know we will have our up and down days but we will make her
life a good one and I will see to that.



Paula wrote:
"Snackle" wrote in news:1167851568.655099.228860@
48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com:

Also Tara, yes I can see that I will need thick skin on the group
because I am obviously on a site where I am a minority and up until
this point thought I was a good animal person but now feel like scum.
I am willing to make changes though and that is a good thing. But I
tell you what it is going to be awfully hard because my life is already
very full with a toddler and full time job amongst other things.....I
just wish my husband shared the same feelings as I do. I assume there
will be another discussion this evening and this time I am putting down
my foot!!!!

Don't think people here think you are awful. If you were arguing that it
was great to bring in dogs and then throw them outside by themselves or
else keep them in crates all day and night, people would be wondering
about you. But I don't think any of us started out as pet owner of the
year. I know for sure I didn't. I didn't know any better. Once I
learned, I did better. That's what we care most about. Are you willing
to learn better and do better? It sounds like you are, so that's fine
with me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Husbands are hard. Often they are harder than kids because they don't
listen as well! But your husband does have to either step up to the
plate or let this dog go to a different home. As you have seen, the long
hours of kenneling are just creating a messy crate problem. The
behavioral problems will get worse, not better. While the puppy is still
really young, he has a better chance of finding a new home. If you wait
until he is older to decide you just can't put up with all the trouble of
a puppy with your current lifestyles (and no judgment there, I have
decided I never want a puppy in my house again because it's just too
hard), the dog will pay the price. As will your marriage as you clean up
the messes of a dog that your husband wanted and get more and more
resentful. Having a young child just makes it harder because you have
two little creatures that are too dependent on you and not very well
trained to stay out of trouble if left on their own.

Maybe you could get an adult dog. In fact, given your husband's
intentions and expectations, perhaps he could be talked into an older dog
that already has some training. Check places like petfinder.com for dogs
that are adults, so they can hold it longer and aren't going to go
through teething stages. If they are already housebroken and have some
house manners, which many of them are because many of them are being
fostered in homes, you can have the dog in with the house dogs right off
the bat. You can let the dog out to play with the lab and in the
meantime work on making the lab more able to come in more often, but at
least then you only have one dog to work on. Make your husband clean out
the messy kennel that "his" dog is creating and perhaps he'll think it
over even sooner. As long as he doesn't have to pay the price of his
decision, he's not likely to change his mind. Would you? But the longer
this goes, the worse it will be for all involved.

Paula

On 4 Jan 2007 06:08:31 -0800, "Snackle" , clicked
their heels and said:

I think I really needed an awakening from you guys and I got that.
The whole puppy thing....I think that we got so used to the way it was
with our other dogs that we forgot all the extra work that goes into
it....I know we will have our up and down days but we will make her
life a good one and I will see to that.

Sounds like you are all on the right track and your willingness to put
in the time is just a huge factor here!

Just one note - I don't think the puppy needs her big area at night.
My recommendation will always be to crate the puppy (doesn't need to
be a big crate) in the bedroom overnight, particularly if the other
dogs sleep in the bedroom. Otherwise, crate here where those dogs
sleep. A substantial puppy can sleep through the night more often
than not, but some may need a middle of the night outing. I think it
would be more helpful than giving her the ability to eliminate indoors
during the night.

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com