Well, I got through the 1st installment of the Jerry Howe manual and it
makes sense to me. HOWEver (as Jerry writes the word, probably as a
kindof creepy way of using his distraction techniques on US, the
humans!), on my first attempt to use the distracting rattle, Emma wants
to get the device. Sure, she stopped doing the behavior (going after
Sharon's breakfast) and substituted the disruptive grab the rattle behavior.

I can imagine when I take her outside with a can/pennies device, she
will go after that one too.

bill

BTW, I'm going to have to use the technique on Sharon to break her from
the instantaneous, knee-jerk "NO" command at every little behavior. I
want to be subtle, so I think I'll just cough every time...

wrote:



THAT happens when you fail to FOLLOW THE
INSTRUCTIONS PRECISELY as you'll see below.



OK I'm not perfect at following instructions, but I did continue to
praise her as she grabbed the rattle out of my hand. My question was
more along the line of the practicality of wrestling with her with one
hand and maybe using another rattle in the other? Tried that, but she
would jump from one rattle to the other. Should I just make a bunch of
them and keep tossing them all over the place? She can't horde them all
I suppHOWEs.

"William Stacy, O.D." wrote in
:

Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Forensic_Sciences_Resea rch_Laboratory@hotma
i
l.com wrote:



THAT happens when you fail to FOLLOW THE
INSTRUCTIONS PRECISELY as you'll see below.



OK I'm not perfect at following instructions, but I did continue to
praise her as she grabbed the rattle out of my hand. My question was
more along the line of the practicality of wrestling with her with one
hand and maybe using another rattle in the other? Tried that, but she
would jump from one rattle to the other. Should I just make a bunch
of them and keep tossing them all over the place? She can't horde
them all I suppHOWEs.


I noticed you asked the group at large this question originally. Just so
you know, no one else will likely reply to this thread, because you've
made it clear that you are following one man's version of a technique.
Anything anyone else will say would only be bashed by him as being
"wrong". The fact that we've cumulatively trained thousands of dogs to
not only do thses things, but far FAR more doesn't matter to him. The
fact that many of the techniques used by others are easily as- if not
more humane than his ALSO doesn't matter to him.

Evewn now, he's got you running around with fistfulls of rattles and
still telling you it didn't work because "you're doing it wrong". Its
always going to be your fault.

The good news, is that it seems like you're willing to find a method
that will work for your dog, and that you're willing to apply it fairly
and apply it effectively. That indicates that your dog will indeed get
trained....no matter *who's* method you use. That's good for you, and
good for your dog. Sound distraction does work. And it works pretty
well. Heck, trainers (here and elsewhere) have been using it in their
overall methods for years. So its a long since tried and true way of
teaching your dog.

Since you have picked one man's manual as a way of applying it (and, no,
he did not invent anything in that manual without reading it or seeing
it somewhere else first), then more power to you. Just please don't
interpret everyone else's silence as a lack of knowledge on using sound
as a tool. We just know from experience that trying to help one of
Jerry's followers leads to more and more abuse from Jerry, and a
situation where his follower is put into the position (by Jerry) of
having to take his side in Jerry's Great War or face the same abuse from
him that he heaps on everyone else (and yes, the people that ended up
not believing totally supporting him ended up getting a healthy dose of
his abuse. He's running a cult, and if you question him for too long,
you're going to face his wrath).

You're just trying to get your loved pet trained, so I doubt most here
see any point in putting you in that position, or in putting themselves
in a battle for your heart and mind.

I hope you have success with your dog, and good luck.

Tara

Tara wrote:

I noticed you asked the group at large this question originally. Just so
you know, no one else will likely reply to this thread, because you've
made it clear that you are following one man's version of a technique.
Anything anyone else will say would only be bashed by him as being
"wrong". The fact that we've cumulatively trained thousands of dogs to
not only do thses things, but far FAR more doesn't matter to him. The
fact that many of the techniques used by others are easily as- if not
more humane than his ALSO doesn't matter to him.

The first time I came to this group I realized the battle had been going
on here. I'm not naive at newsgrouping, only at dog training.



Evewn now, he's got you running around with fistfulls of rattles and
still telling you it didn't work because "you're doing it wrong". Its
always going to be your fault.

I also know the scientific method, so don't worry about me.


Since you have picked one man's manual as a way of applying it (and, no,
he did not invent anything in that manual without reading it or seeing
it somewhere else first), then more power to you. Just please don't
interpret everyone else's silence as a lack of knowledge on using sound
as a tool.

Not at all, although I think most people don't understand that they can
easily reply to someone like me directly, without being posted to the
group, by simply hitting the "reply ALL" button (at least that's what it
is on Netscape, your brouser might be different), then deleting the
newsgroup(s) from the recipient list. While I'm at it, I will say one
thing I don't care for that he and many others do is cross-posting. I
try to stay on one group and not multiply posting unnecessarily, so I
try to remove all irrelevant (to me) recipient groups he adds each time
I respond.



We just know from experience that trying to help one of
Jerry's followers leads to more and more abuse from Jerry, and a
situation where his follower is put into the position (by Jerry) of
having to take his side in Jerry's Great War or face the same abuse from
him that he heaps on everyone else (and yes, the people that ended up
not believing totally supporting him ended up getting a healthy dose of
his abuse. He's running a cult, and if you question him for too long,
you're going to face his wrath).

I also know about cults, detest them, and will not become one of his
members, if that what he's about. However, so far I like the idea. I'm
certainly not opposed to mixing techniques or adding to them.


You're just trying to get your loved pet trained, so I doubt most here
see any point in putting you in that position, or in putting themselves
in a battle for your heart and mind.

I hope you have success with your dog, and good luck.

Thanks. Years ago I raised one other dog in traditional novice fashion
and she turned out pretty darned good. Fortunately dogs are like human
kids. Pretty resilient no matter how bungling their owners are...

"William Stacy, O.D." wrote in
. net:

Tara wrote:

I noticed you asked the group at large this question originally. Just
so you know, no one else will likely reply to this thread, because
you've made it clear that you are following one man's version of a
technique. Anything anyone else will say would only be bashed by him
as being "wrong". The fact that we've cumulatively trained thousands
of dogs to not only do thses things, but far FAR more doesn't matter
to him. The fact that many of the techniques used by others are
easily as- if not more humane than his ALSO doesn't matter to him.

The first time I came to this group I realized the battle had been
going on here. I'm not naive at newsgrouping, only at dog training.

Ok. No trying to do anything but let you know that your question isn't
likely to be addressed by anyone here. Normally, there would have been
dozens of posts trying to address your question by now.

Evewn now, he's got you running around with fistfulls of rattles and
still telling you it didn't work because "you're doing it wrong". Its
always going to be your fault.

I also know the scientific method, so don't worry about me.

Okey doke.

Since you have picked one man's manual as a way of applying it (and,
no, he did not invent anything in that manual without reading it or
seeing it somewhere else first), then more power to you. Just please
don't interpret everyone else's silence as a lack of knowledge on
using sound as a tool.

Not at all, although I think most people don't understand that they
can easily reply to someone like me directly, without being posted to
the group, by simply hitting the "reply ALL" button (at least that's
what it is on Netscape, your brouser might be different), then
deleting the newsgroup(s) from the recipient list.

Just a note on this point:

In terms of usenet ettiquette, this would be considered *incredibly*
rude to do. This is a discussion group. People post here to discuss
things in public. Many people who participate in usenet would consider
it very impolite if someone took it upon themselves to write to them
personally just because they saw their post in a group.

So, its not that people don't understand how to do that (and on most
readers, its a lot easier than you map out there. Many readers just have
a "reply to sender only" feature), its that its actually rude to do
that.

While I'm at it, I
will say one thing I don't care for that he and many others do is
cross-posting.

Actually, its pretty much just him on the dog groups. No one else but
him does that here.

I try to stay on one group and not multiply posting
unnecessarily, so I try to remove all irrelevant (to me) recipient
groups he adds each time I respond.

That's much appreciated. Thanks.

We just know from experience that trying to help one of
Jerry's followers leads to more and more abuse from Jerry, and a
situation where his follower is put into the position (by Jerry) of
having to take his side in Jerry's Great War or face the same abuse
from him that he heaps on everyone else (and yes, the people that
ended up not believing totally supporting him ended up getting a
healthy dose of his abuse. He's running a cult, and if you question
him for too long, you're going to face his wrath).

I also know about cults, detest them, and will not become one of his
members, if that what he's about.

That's pretty much all he's about. You're either for him, or you're
against him. That's how he works. There are even people who used to post
here that met him when they were his "followers" and who found him
profoundly frightening and disturbing.

However, so far I like the idea.
I'm certainly not opposed to mixing techniques or adding to them.


You're just trying to get your loved pet trained, so I doubt most
here see any point in putting you in that position, or in putting
themselves in a battle for your heart and mind.

I hope you have success with your dog, and good luck.

Thanks. Years ago I raised one other dog in traditional novice
fashion and she turned out pretty darned good. Fortunately dogs are
like human kids. Pretty resilient no matter how bungling their owners
are...

This is true. They're far more forgiving and resiliant than humans are.
We could learn a lot from them.

Again, good luck....and have fun

Tara

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 18:49:49 GMT, "William Stacy, O.D."
wrote:

...
The first time I came to this group I realized the battle had been going
on here. I'm not naive at newsgrouping, only at dog training.

There is no longer a battle. Howe is filtered out or ignored by nearly
everyone else--just like folks who persist in talking about him.



________________________
Whatever it takes.

"William Stacy, O.D." wrote in
. net:

Not at all, although I think most people don't understand that
they can easily reply to someone like me directly, without being
posted to the group, by simply hitting the "reply ALL" button

Actually, most of us probably do understand that. We also
understand that group culture is that discussions that begin in
public stay in public.

Furthermore, you made it clear that you wanted to discuss Howe's
"methods." I don't. Ergo, I won't be participating in any
discussion of that subject. I mention it, because suspect I'm not
the only one.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

What I tell you three times is true.
-- Lewis Carroll