I haven't been in this group for many many moons, being both dogless and
*very* busy, but now something has come up.

My ex came up for a visit last week, just in time for the big DC snow
(big for DC, anyway) and is still here. Some of you may remember that
he has two dogs, a (mostly) lab named Buddy, and a beagle/dalmation mix
named Maggie. They are both great dogs, although Maggie sometimes needs
a leeetle too much attention.

But just a few days before he came up, he literally rescued a miniature
beagle who was running back and forth across a busy highway, causing
cars to slam on their brakes and nearly getting hit several times. He
finally coaxed the dog to come to him and took him to the vet to find
out if the dog had a chip (he had a collar, but no tag on it). Nope.
While trying to find the owner, he's taking care of the dog, who is
called Peanut since we don't know his original name.

When he brought Peanut up here, the dog was very thin and slept a lot.
The vet at home had put Peanut on some kind of medication, an antibiotic
I think, but I don't know what for. Peanut looks like a puppy in size,
but the vet says he's about three years old, going by the calcification
on his teeth.

The other night Peanut threw up a tapeworm. So he went to the vet up
here, who prescribed medication for him for that AND for the other two
dogs, just in case. Peanut is now feeling much better and more playful
and eating better.

He's a really sweet little dog, very smart, very well behaved, but seems
to have an issue with some people or groups of people when walking.
Most people he just ignores, or looks at and wags his tail, but some
people cause him to literally freak out and try to run away. We pick
him up at this point and he is shaking like a leaf, obviously terrified.
None of these people have actually approached him and most of them
haven't even said anything to us. Obviously this dog has had bad
experiences. There doesn't seem to be a common pattern, except that he
doesn't like large (like four) groups of people, or people carrying
boxes, or people laughing and talking loudly. Sometimes he's so upset
that he tries to get out of our arms to run away.

When we run into other dogs, he reacts somewhat the same way, but when
the other dogs go away, he stares after them and whimpers as if he
really wanted to go play with them. He is fine with Buddy and Maggie,
except that he is not giving Maggie the deference she thinks is due all
the time (he doesn't actually challenge her dominance, but it's almost
like the way a human teenager treats authority figures).

He's very docile with us, even allowing us (pretty much total strangers
at this point) to give him his medication (though it's obvious he's not
thrilled). We have to use the open-and-poke method because he figured
out the pill-in-the-hot-dog thing after the first pill.

He has some of the same issues that Toby did (the dog who originally
brought me to this newsgroup) but in a different pattern. Also, I'm
wondering if the tapeworm thing heralds a whole list of other problems.
It would appear whoever owned him before wasn't treating him for
anything. He's had a heartworm test but we won't have the results until
Tuesday. The dog was found in North Carolina, where David now lives.

Not sure what I'm asking for, exactly. Just comments on the health
issues (other things to watch out for, both behaviorly and physically),
basically.
--
Kevin Michael Vail* * | I would rather have a mind opened by wonder
* * * | than one closed by belief. * -- Gerry Spence

On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 20:16:25 GMT, Kevin Michael Vail
wrote:


[...]
The other night Peanut threw up a tapeworm. So he went to the vet up
here, who prescribed medication for him for that AND for the other two
dogs, just in case. Peanut is now feeling much better and more playful
and eating better.

The risk is very, very low, but tapeworms can also be passed to humans
from their pets. If you smooched, got licked, touched, etc. this dog,
or his feces, or saliva (from licking his own feces, etc.), there is
still at least some chance that the tapeworms (in the form of tapeworm
eggs) could have been passed on to you.

He's very docile with us, even allowing us (pretty much total strangers
at this point) to give him his medication (though it's obvious he's not
thrilled). We have to use the open-and-poke method

Which could expose your hand to his saliva, which also theoretically
could contain tapeworm eggs. And then if you touched your mouth with
that hand...and if your immune system is in any way compromised, it's
definitely possible.

So be sure to use a good hand cleanser every time you handle him,
until you're absolutely sure he's tapeworm and parasite free.

Not sure what I'm asking for, exactly. Just comments on the health
issues (other things to watch out for, both behaviorly and physically),
basically.

Tip: Before you introduce a *stray* dog to your own, always have a
good vet exam him first, followed by a brief quarantine period.

--
Handsome Jack Morrison

Some Republicans are just as dumb as the Democrats:
http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/g/982...6-d4f4d1574fac
Democrats' new stragegy on Iraq - "Surrender Without Responsibility":
http://instapundit.com/archives2/2007/02/post_2518.php

Snip assHowe crossposting

Tip: Before you introduce a *stray* dog to your own,
always have a good vet exam him first, followed by a
brief quarantine period.

BWEEEEEAAAAHAHAHHAAAAA!!!

How is that even remotely funny, child molestor?

On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 20:16:25 GMT, Kevin Michael Vail
wrote:

We pick
him up at this point and he is shaking like a leaf, obviously terrified.
None of these people have actually approached him and most of them
haven't even said anything to us

Have you looked into obedience training yet?

Here's a web page that talks about Bach Flower Essences. Rescue
Remedy is great for what your dog is fighting

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/animalflower.htm
written permission given.
~*~*~*Amy ~*~*~
Save a Tree, Save our Planet, Recycle, Think Organic
http://www.shaklee.net/williamson
________________
Thought of the day:
Circular Definition: see Definition, Circular.

In article 2007021818295816807-montana@wildhackcominvalid,
montana wildhack wrote:

Good to see you back.

Thanks. I feel odd just barging in after so long, though!

I wouldn't pick the dog up even when he's freaking out because you're
rewarding his being scared.

The only reason I'm doing so is because if he moves backward too
quickly, he'll come right out of his collar. If I can position myself
where he can't back up because my legs are right behind him, he seems to
just sit and shiver in place until the threat passes, and then I praise
him and we continue walking. (If he were my dog, I'd be using a harness
so as not to worry so much about him getting out of it.)

Maybe you're going a little too fast for the dog. Is there a place
where you can see people and dogs and yet be somewhat removed?

Not really. Especially right now, with the remains of last week's storm
all around (icy mounds between the sidewalk and the curb, cutting down
the available amount of sidewalk by a good bit). We have stopped
walking him on one particular street, which has more commercial
establishments and more people, and that has helped. Also, we're making
sure that there are two people to walk the dogs, and one of them just
walks Peanut, to be able to steer him away from situations that might be
threatening, and that's helped, too. (It also makes it easier to take
him back inside if it's really cold out, since he gets chilled more
quickly than the larger dogs, and usually does what he needs to do more
quickly anyway.) Although it looks odd with one person walking the two
big dogs and another walking Peanut!

I also think a class, or at least a session with a trainer would be
good. I think you need an in-person evaluation and plan. Hope all goes
well!

He seems to be well trained (he does normally walk very nicely beside
whoever has his leash, without being told to heel, and sits very
politely whenever asked), but I agree that at least talking to a trainer
wouldn't be a bad thing.

This whole freaking out thing will be less of an issue when my ex takes
him back to North Carolina, since he lives in a fairly rural area and
the dog won't have to deal with people on the street there, because
he'll generally only be out walking in his own yard.

He's becoming more secure in general, which I think will reduce his
anxiety levels outside, too.

Thanks for the comments!
--
boss, sometimes i think * * * * * |* kevin michael vail
that our friend mehitabel * * * * |*
is a trifle too gay * * * * * * * |
* * * * -- archy* * * * * * * * * |* wotthehell wotthehell

In article ,
AWilliamson wrote:

On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 20:16:25 GMT, Kevin Michael Vail
wrote:

We pick
him up at this point and he is shaking like a leaf, obviously terrified.
None of these people have actually approached him and most of them
haven't even said anything to us

Have you looked into obedience training yet?

Not yet, as he's not my dog and the person who has him has only had him
a week or so. He does seem to have had some training already, too.

Here's a web page that talks about Bach Flower Essences. Rescue
Remedy is great for what your dog is fighting

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/animalflower.htm

I hadn't thought about anything like this, will pass it along--thanks!
--
Kevin Michael Vail | "This is so cool I have to go to the bathroom!"
| -- Calvin

Kevin Michael Vail wrote:

He's a really sweet little dog, very smart, very well behaved, but seems
to have an issue with some people or groups of people when walking.
Most people he just ignores, or looks at and wags his tail, but some
people cause him to literally freak out and try to run away. We pick
him up at this point and he is shaking like a leaf, obviously terrified.
None of these people have actually approached him and most of them
haven't even said anything to us. Obviously this dog has had bad
experiences.


Does that last sentence follow logically? Is it obvious from his
behavior that he's had bad experiences? I'm not questioning you
directly, Kevin. I'm thinking about that statement in general. I've
heard variations on it over and over. Most recently it was from a
neighbor. She was telling a story in which the stray dog was fine in
most situations but wouldn't jump in the car and would struggle when
carried into the car. Obviously the dog was put into a car, then
abandoned, was her conclusion.


Or there will be a dog that's fine with most people but snarky around
children (or men, or people of one ethnicity, or guys in blue uniforms,
or whatever). Obviously some kids teased or tormented the dog is the
conclusion.


But are those conclusions warranted? I mean, all we have is the dog's
behavior, no proof, and dogs have all manner of weird behaviors. For
example, Genny had this thing about barking at drunk people. She'd
start barking at someone in the distance. Only when we walked closer
would I realize that he was drunk. She also had a thing about wheels.
They could be skates, shopping buggies, or skateboards. She'd bark at
people on them. One time it was a guy using a wheeled board to help him
work under his car (don't know the correct word for it). But Genny
never had a bad experience around wheels or drunk people that I knew of,
and I got her when she was 8 weeks old. It makes me wonder about the
rest of those conclusions.


--Lia

"Julia Altshuler" wrote in message
...
Kevin Michael Vail wrote:

He's a really sweet little dog, very smart, very well behaved, but seems
to have an issue with some people or groups of people when walking. Most
people he just ignores, or looks at and wags his tail, but some people
cause him to literally freak out and try to run away. We pick him up at
this point and he is shaking like a leaf, obviously terrified. None of
these people have actually approached him and most of them haven't even
said anything to us. Obviously this dog has had bad experiences.


Does that last sentence follow logically? Is it obvious from his behavior
that he's had bad experiences? I'm not questioning you directly, Kevin.
I'm thinking about that statement in general. I've heard variations on it
over and over. Most recently it was from a neighbor. She was telling a
story in which the stray dog was fine in most situations but wouldn't jump
in the car and would struggle when carried into the car. Obviously the
dog was put into a car, then abandoned, was her conclusion.


Or there will be a dog that's fine with most people but snarky around
children (or men, or people of one ethnicity, or guys in blue uniforms, or
whatever). Obviously some kids teased or tormented the dog is the
conclusion.


But are those conclusions warranted? I mean, all we have is the dog's
behavior, no proof, and dogs have all manner of weird behaviors. For
example, Genny had this thing about barking at drunk people. She'd start
barking at someone in the distance. Only when we walked closer would I
realize that he was drunk. She also had a thing about wheels. They could
be skates, shopping buggies, or skateboards. She'd bark at people on
them. One time it was a guy using a wheeled board to help him work under
his car (don't know the correct word for it). But Genny never had a bad
experience around wheels or drunk people that I knew of, and I got her
when she was 8 weeks old. It makes me wonder about the rest of those
conclusions.


--Lia


Just adding another story - Atty (60 lb. lab) refuses to visit anyone (male,
female, young, old) who's blind - be it on the street or in the nursing
home. I cannot pull her to them, she digs her paws in, gets stiff legged,
and literally, I have to drag her to them. She's a sweetheart with everyone
else in the nursing home, but somehow, she knows who's blind and refuses to
go. It's happened whether they're quiet or noisy, sitting in the living
room area or in their room. I don't force her, there are other dogs who
willing visit with them. I know, as you do with Genny, that she was never
abused by any blind person - always with us, yada yada yada. In fact, she
had never seen a blind person until we started visiting almost 5 years ago -
and it was the same reaction to the very first gentleman she met who was
blind. He never even got to pet her. So, what conclusion do I come to?

Sue and Atty

In article ,
Julia Altshuler wrote:

Kevin Michael Vail wrote:

He's a really sweet little dog, very smart, very well behaved, but seems
to have an issue with some people or groups of people when walking.
Most people he just ignores, or looks at and wags his tail, but some
people cause him to literally freak out and try to run away. We pick
him up at this point and he is shaking like a leaf, obviously terrified.
None of these people have actually approached him and most of them
haven't even said anything to us. Obviously this dog has had bad
experiences.


Does that last sentence follow logically? Is it obvious from his
behavior that he's had bad experiences?

Well, I guess it doesn't, necessarily, but it's a good working
hypothesis. And it seems the way you would deal with it would be the
same whether the dog developed the attitude from past experiences or is
just strange.

I'm not questioning you
directly, Kevin. I'm thinking about that statement in general. I've
heard variations on it over and over. Most recently it was from a
neighbor. She was telling a story in which the stray dog was fine in
most situations but wouldn't jump in the car and would struggle when
carried into the car. Obviously the dog was put into a car, then
abandoned, was her conclusion.

My conclusion would have been that the dog was raised by cats. :-)

Peanut is doing better. We've learned to steer him to where he can
watch people or dogs go by without being too close, or letting him sit
between my feet (which seems to let him be more confident). All of the
being-aware-of-approaching-dogs-and-people skills I acquired with Toby
are coming in useful again.
--
Kevin Michael Vail | a billion stars go spinning through the night,
| blazing high above your head.
. . . . . . . . . | But _in_ you is the presence that
. . . . . . . . | will be, when all the stars are dead.
. . . . . . . . . | (Rainer Maria Rilke)

Kevin Michael Vail wrote in news:kevin-
:

In article 2007021818295816807-montana@wildhackcominvalid,
montana wildhack wrote:

Good to see you back.

Thanks. I feel odd just barging in after so long, though!

I wouldn't pick the dog up even when he's freaking out because you're
rewarding his being scared.

The only reason I'm doing so is because if he moves backward too
quickly, he'll come right out of his collar.

Two things: a well fitting collar would help a LOT with this (or a
harness), and pick him up *BEFORE* he starts reacting. Before the fear
sets in is the time to bring him into a more comforting position, not
after. Waiting until he;s already reacting is just likely to make it
worse.

Holding him while feeding him fresh chicken breast or little pieces of
hot dog *before* he reacts is a good way to help him learn to filter out
the Scary Thing. Or, if he can't filter it out, its a great way to see
exactly where his thresholds are for that particular type of stimulus as
he's right up close to you where you can see him, and you'll feel the
intensity of his nibbling the hot dog increase as his anxiety level
increases. This happens before the dog would normally give an overt
behavior alerting you to a problem, which allows you to see more
preciselt when his fear kicks in. That's the point at which you should
*no longer proceed* towards the Scary Thing until he's more sensitized
to it.

Biggest mistake people make when dealing with serious fear issues in
dogs is to push them too far too fast. I just got to see a version of
that this weekend. A friend's Aunt adopted a fear aggressive Chi several
months ago. I did a pro bono lesson and saw a potentially serious
problem. My friend's husband insists on thrusting this dog into the laps
of anyone she growls and barks at (because he got lucky using that
technique on his fearful Chi). If she doesn't stop barking and growling,
he corrects her verbally thenm physically.

No surprise to me is that she's bitten several people by now. Some of
them on the face *after* she has chosen to sit on their laps (of course,
the mixed message of forcing her to do that before she's natually ready
for it has totally confused the issue of her learning and sticking to
her own safety zones).

The more you force a terrified dog, the more you increase the bite risk.
If he's going to end up scared by a certain group passing by, either
pick him up, and get out of the way, or just get out of the way. I'm in
NYC (very densely populated) and its possible to limit exposure even
here. It can be done.

If I can position myself
where he can't back up because my legs are right behind him, he seems
to
just sit and shiver in place until the threat passes, and then I
praise
him and we continue walking.

Better to go as far from the threat as possible before he's in that
state. Things go much faster that way.

(If he were my dog, I'd be using a harness
so as not to worry so much about him getting out of it.)

Definitely. With other people's dogs, if I feel they're not secured, I
won't walk them until they have better equipment. I won't put myself in
the position of having to be responsible for a pets death....*anyone's*
pet.

Maybe you're going a little too fast for the dog. Is there a place
where you can see people and dogs and yet be somewhat removed?

Not really. Especially right now, with the remains of last week's
storm
all around (icy mounds between the sidewalk and the curb, cutting down
the available amount of sidewalk by a good bit). We have stopped
walking him on one particular street, which has more commercial
establishments and more people, and that has helped. Also, we're
making
sure that there are two people to walk the dogs, and one of them just
walks Peanut, to be able to steer him away from situations that might
be
threatening, and that's helped, too. (It also makes it easier to take
him back inside if it's really cold out, since he gets chilled more
quickly than the larger dogs, and usually does what he needs to do
more
quickly anyway.) Although it looks odd with one person walking the
two
big dogs and another walking Peanut!

Really, he should probably be walked completely seperately at this
point. Between the stimuli of the opther dogs, and the attention of the
handler being divided, he's not getting the focus that his fearful state
needs to be successfully addressed.

I also think a class, or at least a session with a trainer would be
good. I think you need an in-person evaluation and plan. Hope all
goes
well!

He seems to be well trained (he does normally walk very nicely beside
whoever has his leash, without being told to heel, and sits very
politely whenever asked),

Fear does that. Inhibited behaviors due to fear mimic training quite
well. I can't tell you how many times I've been called in to work with a
fearful dog only to be told the dog was "perfectly behaved without being
told" ....except for the fear. The point is, once you build confidence
in the dog, those inhibitors will melt away. And then you're left with a
confident, and now untrained, pup.

but I agree that at least talking to a trainer
wouldn't be a bad thing.

This whole freaking out thing will be less of an issue when my ex
takes
him back to North Carolina, since he lives in a fairly rural area and
the dog won't have to deal with people on the street there, because
he'll generally only be out walking in his own yard.

He's becoming more secure in general, which I think will reduce his
anxiety levels outside, too.

Thanks for the comments!

Good luck!

Sounds like a very lucky little dog to have found your friend.

Tara