Lynne wrote:
on Sat, 31 Mar 2007 16:36:48 GMT, Julia Altshuler
wrote:

(How was your trip, and would you email me privately your notes on
airport recordings?)


I already posted it in the original thread.


Whoops. I wasn't paying attention. I went back and looked. That's
perfect! Thanks so much.


--Lia

Lis wrote:

What numbers are you basing this on? The "official" count, which is
really just the animals in Menu's feeding test? The Banfield numbers,
who have hundreds of cases, and project a number of several thousand
nationwide based on their own numbers? The numbers from the Veterinary
Information Network--who say that only 10-20% of their members have
reported in, but nevertheless they have reports of 1,000 sick animals,
and project that it could easily be ten times that? The Pet Connection
numbers?


Thanks for the information. I was going by my neighborhood dog network
and the little I get from television news. I'm not glad the numbers are
so much higher. I am glad for the explanation.


--Lia

on Sat, 31 Mar 2007 16:57:10 GMT, Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:

IMO, it's more than enough. In fact, I wouldn't worry about any wheat
or wheat gluten product that wasn't made by Menu Foods (from products
imported from China), no matter the brand.

The problem is that the FDA has not disclosed the names of all of the
companies who have received shipments from the same supplier. Since
yesterday, we've heard new recalls from both Hills and Purina (Alpo cuts
and gravy), and Nutro states on their web site that their dry foods do
not contain wheat gluten, but guess what? Their treats do!

Who is next?

What's really scary to me is that the FDA is saying the level of
melamine found in the food doesn't explain the symptoms they are
seeing in pets who consumed it.

Tip of the iceberg?

No, I really don't think so.

I hope not, but if there isn't enough melamine or aminopterin in the food
to cause the symptoms, then what is?

But "better safe than sorry" has always been one of my mottos.

Ditto here. Hence the pile of treats in the trash. Thankfully, Roxy
will work for Cheerios.

--
Lynne

What numbers are you basing this on? The "official" count, which is
really just the animals in Menu's feeding test? The Banfield numbers,
who have hundreds of cases, and project a number of several thousand
nationwide based on their own numbers? The numbers from the Veterinary
Information Network--who say that only 10-20% of their members have
reported in, but nevertheless they have reports of 1,000 sick animals,
and project that it could easily be ten times that? The Pet Connection
numbers?


One thing to keep in mind is that there is a reason that these numbers
are so different. Tying a death conclusively to the food is going to be
very difficult, even if you can confirm with certainty that the animal
was on the food.

The increase in observed kidney cases could easily be due to simply an
increase in looking for problems. People are worried about their
animals, so they bring their dog/cat in for a blood test. Guess what?
Some of them will have kidney problems. These are going to cause quite a
bit of statistical noise in whatever numbers you are looking at.

Dale

On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:13:53 -0500, Lynne
wrote:

on Sat, 31 Mar 2007 16:57:10 GMT, Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:

IMO, it's more than enough. In fact, I wouldn't worry about any wheat
or wheat gluten product that wasn't made by Menu Foods (from products
imported from China), no matter the brand.

The problem is that the FDA has not disclosed the names of all of the
companies who have received shipments from the same supplier. Since
yesterday, we've heard new recalls from both Hills and Purina (Alpo cuts
and gravy), and Nutro states on their web site that their dry foods do
not contain wheat gluten, but guess what? Their treats do!

Yeah, I've been focusing on Purina's dry products, because that's all
we use here.

This unnamed supplier of bad "stuff" from China is apparently a U.S.
company, so I'm sure that threats of litigation is behind the
non-release of its name - before all the test results are in.

A lot of lawyers are going to become even richer because of it.

Who is next?

God only knows. But I feel very good about Purina's dry products.

What's really scary to me is that the FDA is saying the level of
melamine found in the food doesn't explain the symptoms they are
seeing in pets who consumed it.

Tip of the iceberg?

No, I really don't think so.

I hope not, but if there isn't enough melamine or aminopterin in the food
to cause the symptoms, then what is?

Yes, it could be something else altogether (although somewhat
unlikely), which is probably one reason the supplier's name is being
withheld until more testing can be done.

But "better safe than sorry" has always been one of my mottos.

Ditto here. Hence the pile of treats in the trash.

Tragic results for some aside, this episode should likely result in
higher standards, more testing, etc. for dog and cat foods generally.

I just hope that we get to the bottom of this pretty soon.

--
Handsome Jack Morrison

A liberal stands up to the Surrender Lobby!
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/007212.htm
Not everyone in Europe is a stupid as Rosie O'Donnell:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...474636,00.html
Your United Nations at work!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMEw0lZ3k_Y&eurl=
A Moronocy of Dunces!
http://www.julescrittenden.com/2007/...ocy-of-dunces/
How modern liberals think!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaE98w1KZ-c&eurl=
Gore's Global Warming Religion:
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=19927
Researchers Question Validity Of A 'Global Temperature':
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0315101129.htm
Liberal eco-preeners: Do as we say, not as we do!
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...599714,00.html
Danish scientist: Global warming is a myth.
http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Science...-012154-7403r/
Scientists threatened with death for 'climate denial'!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../ngreen211.xml
The Great Global Warming Swindle - the video:
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?doc...global+warming

Lis wrote:


There may not have been the same amount of contaminant in every can or
pouch. Given the way things normally work in manufacturing, there
probably wasn't an abrupt shift, on the manufacturing end, from wheat
gluten from one supplier to wheat gluten from another supplier.

Good points. Also, remember that there will be a lot of people who had
really sick pets last year who survived who will never report in.

As an example, I was feeding Zip the Min Pin some of the Nutro slices
and gravy stuff last year as a topper to get him to eat. He got quite
ill several times, and I remember clearly at least one of those times he
was drinking excessive water. I took him to the vet two different times,
and each time we looked at stool sample, not kidney levels. Because
poisoning just isn't what you look for--prior to this kidney failure in
dogs just wasn't something that cropped up every day.

Now in my case I happened to get really lucky. He didn't die. He
recovered, and a kidney function, liver function, and full CBC last
weekend said he was completely normal. I dodged a huge bullet.

But I wonder how many dogs there are out there like Zipper, who had the
food a few times and didn't get fatally sick, and with the owner not
feeding the food continuously or as the main ingredient, the owner just
doesn't connect the dots?

I've fed Eukanuba PP very successfully for 8 years and have been
extremely pleased with it. And nothing I was feeding from Euk was
tainted, but the whole thing has made me realize I want a bit better
control over the substances in my dog food, so this week I moved to
Innova Evo.

on Sat, 31 Mar 2007 17:48:46 GMT, Dale Atkin wrote:

The increase in observed kidney cases could easily be due to simply an
increase in looking for problems. People are worried about their
animals, so they bring their dog/cat in for a blood test. Guess what?
Some of them will have kidney problems. These are going to cause quite a
bit of statistical noise in whatever numbers you are looking at.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the increase in kidney disease was
noted by some vets during the month(s) prior to the recall... Which tells
me these vets didn't go looking for it, which implies that the statistical
noise to which you refer may be insignificant.

--
Lynne

on Sat, 31 Mar 2007 18:19:07 GMT, Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:

Yeah, I've been focusing on Purina's dry products, because that's all
we use here.

This unnamed supplier of bad "stuff" from China is apparently a U.S.
company, so I'm sure that threats of litigation is behind the
non-release of its name - before all the test results are in.

Not to mention that the FDA is a pawn of big business...

A lot of lawyers are going to become even richer because of it.

Yep.

Who is next?

God only knows. But I feel very good about Purina's dry products.

I think you can at this point, since they already identified a non-Menu
Foods product in which they used wheat gluten from the supplier in
question.

Yes, it could be something else altogether (although somewhat
unlikely), which is probably one reason the supplier's name is being
withheld until more testing can be done.

But "better safe than sorry" has always been one of my mottos.

Ditto here. Hence the pile of treats in the trash.

Tragic results for some aside, this episode should likely result in
higher standards, more testing, etc. for dog and cat foods generally.

Damn well better.

I just hope that we get to the bottom of this pretty soon.

Damn well better.


--
Lynne

on Sat, 31 Mar 2007 21:41:02 GMT, Lynne
wrote:

I think you can at this point, since they already identified a non-Menu
Foods product in which they used wheat gluten from the supplier in
question.

I meant to also say that they probably don't have any other impacted
products (though I'd still avoid wheat gluten).

--
Lynne

Lynne wrote:
on Sat, 31 Mar 2007 17:48:46 GMT, Dale Atkin wrote:

The increase in observed kidney cases could easily be due to simply an
increase in looking for problems. People are worried about their
animals, so they bring their dog/cat in for a blood test. Guess what?
Some of them will have kidney problems. These are going to cause quite a
bit of statistical noise in whatever numbers you are looking at.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the increase in kidney disease was
noted by some vets during the month(s) prior to the recall... Which tells
me these vets didn't go looking for it, which implies that the statistical
noise to which you refer may be insignificant.


Things tend to go in phases in veterinary practice. You'll go months
without seeing a case of x, and then all of a sudden 5 will walk through
your door. Its not surprising that at least some of the vets were
experiencing an upturn in cases of renal failure. Looking back its easy
to 'tie' it to the problems we see now, but is it? Do they have any data
as far as what food these dogs/cats were eating?

I'm not saying its not caused by the food, but just trying to point out
that there are other possibilities.

Dale