This is a serious question that has grown out of an argument on another
thread. I know that retrievers like labs and chessies are bred to
retrieve, and retrieve in that context means bringing back ducks, maybe
in a field trial.


Then there's the bring it back game that lots of dogs, not necessarily
retrievers, enjoy. With Cubbe, this means a ball in a sock. With my
brother's flop eared mustard colored mutt, it meant frisbees. Is that
called fetching?


I ask because I can see where some things that are important to one are
irrelevent to the other. I don't really care if Cubbe shakes and
pounces on the ball-in-sock before bringing it to me. I can see where
that might be a problem with a duck. Same for concepts of hard mouth,
soft mouth, forced retrieve and tug. Vital to get it right in some
circumstances, irrelevent in others. What's the right terminology?


--Lia

Julia Altshuler spoke these words of wisdom in
:

This is a serious question that has grown out of an argument on another
thread. I know that retrievers like labs and chessies are bred to
retrieve, and retrieve in that context means bringing back ducks, maybe
in a field trial.


Then there's the bring it back game that lots of dogs, not necessarily
retrievers, enjoy. With Cubbe, this means a ball in a sock. With my
brother's flop eared mustard colored mutt, it meant frisbees. Is that
called fetching?


I ask because I can see where some things that are important to one are
irrelevent to the other. I don't really care if Cubbe shakes and
pounces on the ball-in-sock before bringing it to me. I can see where
that might be a problem with a duck. Same for concepts of hard mouth,
soft mouth, forced retrieve and tug. Vital to get it right in some
circumstances, irrelevent in others. What's the right terminology?


--Lia



A retrieve comes in many forms, but a retrieve by any other name is still
a retrieve.
Some venues penalize style points.

On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 13:56:35 -0400, Julia Altshuler
wrote:

This is a serious question that has grown out of an argument on another
thread. I know that retrievers like labs and chessies are bred to
retrieve, and retrieve in that context means bringing back ducks, maybe
in a field trial.

Then there's the bring it back game that lots of dogs, not necessarily
retrievers, enjoy. With Cubbe, this means a ball in a sock. With my
brother's flop eared mustard colored mutt, it meant frisbees. Is that
called fetching?

I ask because I can see where some things that are important to one are
irrelevent to the other. I don't really care if Cubbe shakes and
pounces on the ball-in-sock before bringing it to me. I can see where
that might be a problem with a duck. Same for concepts of hard mouth,
soft mouth, forced retrieve and tug. Vital to get it right in some
circumstances, irrelevent in others. What's the right terminology?

It's all retrieving, Julia.

But the degree of difficulty changes, depending on the venue.

The field-trial venue, for example, is for expert retrievers only.
Field-trial dogs will compete in a number of series on a typical trial
weekend. Each series may include 4-5 different retrieves, and at
varying distances, up to 400 yards away from the handler.

Plus, each series is set up to fool the dog. Using prevailing the
grounds' structure, wind direction, "poison" birds, gunshots, etc. The
idea is to eliminate as many dogs as possible, and as quickly as
possible.

Some of the retrieves will be what are called "marks." That's where
both the dog and the handler get to see where the bird falls to the
ground out in the field. The dog is expected to remember where each
bird (the bird can be a duck, goose, pheasant, pigeon, etc.) has
fallen, and when sent to retrieve each bird, do it in the fastest,
most expedient manner possible, which is always in a straight line,
and at full speed. That means if there are two ponds, each 50-100
yards in circumference, between the dog and the bird, the dog must
swim across each pond (no, he can't run around it), perhaps up and
down a hill or two, plus cross several roads, a culvert, etc.,
remember exactly where the bird fell, and then pick it up and return
with it to the handler. If the dog veers off course, he's stopped by
the whistle of the handler, and then sent off in a new direction.

He can't drop the bird (otherwise it might escape), he can't play with
the bird (takes up valuable time, because there are more birds to be
retrieved), and he can't munch on it (who wants to eat a munched up
bird?), either.

There are also retrieves called "blinds." A blind retrieve is where
only the handler knows where the bird has been planted in the field,
not the dog. Many blind retrieves are conducted out to 300 yards or
so. The dog is sent off in the direction of the fall, in a straight
line, of course, and if he remains on that straight line, he'll
eventually either see or scent the fallen bird, and then he'll pick it
up and return to the line with it. The "line" is where the handler
must stay during the entire series. He can use verbal commands,
whistle commands, and hand signals, to direct the dog to each bird.

A good field-trial retriever will need very little or no handling when
sent on a mark, but is expected to be handled somewhat for a blind
retrieve. But each "handle" costs the dog points. He's also graded on
style, speed, memory, nose, determination, training, etc.

In real hunting situations, a retriever may be called upon to wrangle
a crippled and very pissed off 20 pound goose, flapping around out in
the middle of a lake, and in frigid weather, and return it to his
handler unharmed.

It's takes a very special dog to be able to do things like that, and
special training, too.

But it's his JOB at this point, and he thrives on doing it.

Anyway, a fun retrieve is always better than no retrieve, but they
should never be confused with what happens out in the field.

--
Handsome Jack Morrison

Getting Vietnam right.
http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=11946

Some "consensus," eh?
"Less Than Half of all Published Scientists Endorse Global Warming Theory"
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...c-6880767e7966

"They're very excitable, these Democrats."
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=22161

In typical "reality-based" fashion, John Edwards wants you to give up *your* SUV, but wants to keep *his* 30,000
sq. ft. home, multiple SUVs, ride in private jets, etc.
http://www.wlos.com/template/inews_w...wlos.com.shtml
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...dwardsHome.jpg

*This* is the *real* reason why the "reality-based" community pushes global-warming hysteria.
To push you around and take your money. Senator Dingell now wants a cap on the Mortgage Interest Deduction!
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007...ll_wants_c.php

Freakin' Democrats. spit

The "reality-based" community: Hopelessly Devoted to Failure.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q...ZhYjU5ZjEzNDE=

Why "liberal" doesn't quite fit:
"In the short term, this reflects the failure of the Republican Party to secure its hard-won victories. In
the longer term, this may provide a new opportunity for the heirs to authentic liberalism - today's conservatives -
as they often thrive when lovers of big government, by whatever name they go by, overreach."
http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/...beral-doe.html

"The main proponents of 'universal coverage' want to throw more money at the current health care system,
which strikes me as unwise. I believe that the 'universal coverage' mantra is dysfunctional for the same
reason that 'more money for public schools' is a dysfunctional mantra for education. When your current
approach is digging you into a hole, the sensible thing to do is not to dig faster. It is to stop digging."
http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=080607B

Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:

It's all retrieving, Julia.

But the degree of difficulty changes, depending on the venue.


That's a good essay. Thanks.


Then it would be accurate to say that I've clicker trained Cubbe to
retrieve? Even though she retrieves a ball-in-sock from down the stairs
as a way to relieve boredom and get exercise on rainy days? It seems
like there should be a different word for what the curly tailed do.


--Lia

On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 16:43:18 -0400, Julia Altshuler
wrote:

Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:

It's all retrieving, Julia.

But the degree of difficulty changes, depending on the venue.

That's a good essay. Thanks.

You're welcome.

Then it would be accurate to say that I've clicker trained Cubbe to
retrieve?

If you've clicker-trained her to retrieve, and she retrieves for you
to your satisfaction, then you've clicker-trained Cubbe to retrieve.

You bet.

Even though she retrieves a ball-in-sock from down the stairs
as a way to relieve boredom and get exercise on rainy days?

It sounds like she has a nice "play" retrieve, and enjoys it.

Just don't invite any field-trial Labs over to the house, cuz they
might retrieve the ball-in-sock *and* Cubbe, and drop them both in
your lap, before circling back to look for your husband.

It seems like there should be a different word for what the curly tailed do.

The curly tailed retrieve?

--
Handsome Jack Morrison

Getting Vietnam right.
http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=11946

Some "consensus," eh?
"Less Than Half of all Published Scientists Endorse Global Warming Theory"
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...c-6880767e7966

"They're very excitable, these Democrats."
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=22161

In typical "reality-based" fashion, John Edwards wants you to give up *your* SUV, but wants to keep *his* 30,000
sq. ft. home, multiple SUVs, ride in private jets, etc.
http://www.wlos.com/template/inews_w...wlos.com.shtml
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...dwardsHome.jpg

*This* is the *real* reason why the "reality-based" community pushes global-warming hysteria.
To push you around and take your money. Senator Dingell now wants a cap on the Mortgage Interest Deduction!
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007...ll_wants_c.php

Freakin' Democrats. spit

The "reality-based" community: Hopelessly Devoted to Failure.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q...ZhYjU5ZjEzNDE=

Why "liberal" doesn't quite fit:
"In the short term, this reflects the failure of the Republican Party to secure its hard-won victories. In
the longer term, this may provide a new opportunity for the heirs to authentic liberalism - today's conservatives -
as they often thrive when lovers of big government, by whatever name they go by, overreach."
http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/...beral-doe.html

"The main proponents of 'universal coverage' want to throw more money at the current health care system,
which strikes me as unwise. I believe that the 'universal coverage' mantra is dysfunctional for the same
reason that 'more money for public schools' is a dysfunctional mantra for education. When your current
approach is digging you into a hole, the sensible thing to do is not to dig faster. It is to stop digging."
http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=080607B

Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:

Just don't invite any field-trial Labs over to the house, cuz they
might retrieve the ball-in-sock *and* Cubbe, and drop them both in
your lap, before circling back to look for your husband.


It would be cool if they found him. I'm not married and have always
wanted to meet the guy.


--Lia

On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 17:48:16 -0400, Julia Altshuler
wrote:

Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:

Just don't invite any field-trial Labs over to the house, cuz they
might retrieve the ball-in-sock *and* Cubbe, and drop them both in
your lap, before circling back to look for your husband.

It would be cool if they found him. I'm not married and have always
wanted to meet the guy.

Aah. Just shacking up, EH?

Heh.

--
Handsome Jack Morrison

Getting Vietnam right.
http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=11946

Some "consensus," eh?
"Less Than Half of all Published Scientists Endorse Global Warming Theory"
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...c-6880767e7966

"They're very excitable, these Democrats."
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=22161

In typical "reality-based" fashion, John Edwards wants you to give up *your* SUV, but wants to keep *his* 30,000
sq. ft. home, multiple SUVs, ride in private jets, etc.
http://www.wlos.com/template/inews_w...wlos.com.shtml
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...dwardsHome.jpg

*This* is the *real* reason why the "reality-based" community pushes global-warming hysteria.
To push you around and take your money. Senator Dingell now wants a cap on the Mortgage Interest Deduction!
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007...ll_wants_c.php

Freakin' Democrats. spit

The "reality-based" community: Hopelessly Devoted to Failure.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q...ZhYjU5ZjEzNDE=

Why "liberal" doesn't quite fit:
"In the short term, this reflects the failure of the Republican Party to secure its hard-won victories. In
the longer term, this may provide a new opportunity for the heirs to authentic liberalism - today's conservatives -
as they often thrive when lovers of big government, by whatever name they go by, overreach."
http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/...beral-doe.html

"The main proponents of 'universal coverage' want to throw more money at the current health care system,
which strikes me as unwise. I believe that the 'universal coverage' mantra is dysfunctional for the same
reason that 'more money for public schools' is a dysfunctional mantra for education. When your current
approach is digging you into a hole, the sensible thing to do is not to dig faster. It is to stop digging."
http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=080607B

Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:

Aah. Just shacking up, EH?


For 20 years. The last 10 at the same address.
--Lia

On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 18:01:14 -0400, Julia Altshuler
wrote:

Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:

Aah. Just shacking up, EH?

For 20 years. The last 10 at the same address.

Well, if you must shack up, I guess it says something about both of
you, that at least you hate to change your addresses.

Heh.

--
Handsome Jack Morrison

Getting Vietnam right.
http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=11946

Some "consensus," eh?
"Less Than Half of all Published Scientists Endorse Global Warming Theory"
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...c-6880767e7966

"They're very excitable, these Democrats."
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=22161

In typical "reality-based" fashion, John Edwards wants you to give up *your* SUV, but wants to keep *his* 30,000
sq. ft. home, multiple SUVs, ride in private jets, etc.
http://www.wlos.com/template/inews_w...wlos.com.shtml
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...dwardsHome.jpg

*This* is the *real* reason why the "reality-based" community pushes global-warming hysteria.
To push you around and take your money. Senator Dingell now wants a cap on the Mortgage Interest Deduction!
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007...ll_wants_c.php

Freakin' Democrats. spit

The "reality-based" community: Hopelessly Devoted to Failure.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q...ZhYjU5ZjEzNDE=

Why "liberal" doesn't quite fit:
"In the short term, this reflects the failure of the Republican Party to secure its hard-won victories. In
the longer term, this may provide a new opportunity for the heirs to authentic liberalism - today's conservatives -
as they often thrive when lovers of big government, by whatever name they go by, overreach."
http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/...beral-doe.html

"The main proponents of 'universal coverage' want to throw more money at the current health care system,
which strikes me as unwise. I believe that the 'universal coverage' mantra is dysfunctional for the same
reason that 'more money for public schools' is a dysfunctional mantra for education. When your current
approach is digging you into a hole, the sensible thing to do is not to dig faster. It is to stop digging."
http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=080607B

On Aug 31, 4:17 pm, Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
In real hunting situations, a retriever may be called upon to wrangle
a crippled and very pissed off 20 pound goose, flapping around out in
the middle of a lake, and in frigid weather, and return it to his
handler unharmed.


I heard a funny story about my father-in-law's first Chocolate Lab,
when he encountered his first pissed off goose when hunting. He got
fed up with the goose fighting him and just laid down on top of it to
pin it to the ground. Not a good retrieve, but it probably could have
at least made it onto America's Funniest Home Videos. The same dog
tried to walk out onto a log into a pond to get the mark that was just
out of his reach at his first trial. Everyone thought it was
hilarious as he tried to balance on this log so he didn't have to get
wet. He ended up just being the family lab.

Nick