Okay, here goes...

Many years ago I adopted a dog from the pound, she was the most
incredibly good dog and has been with me for over ten years. She is now
in her teens. Maybe 12-13? A large breed dog, part Keeshund and
possibly part Shepherd. She is very well trained and knows over 60
different commands/phrases. Her name is Gypsy Rose.

We knew we'd get another dog when her time came, and debated on whether
to get one now, or after. The logic was that now, she could help us
train a new dog by example, and supposedly younger dogs breathe life
into older ones. But we didn't make the decision, we looked around but
never really decided. Until one day we encountered a dog unexpectedly
and adopted her, another dog pound special.

The logic was flawed, and when Dakota's time comes waay down the road,
we'll wait until the after. But that doesn't help us now. We're in it
for the long haul.

Dakota was 8 months when we adopted her, and was a yo-yo dog. She'd
been at the pound twice. It was obvious nobody had taken the time to
train her, and she's come a long way in our care. We've had her for
about 9 weeks.

We've taught her sit, lay down, stay, up (the stairs), go away, come,
and a couple others, including some hand signals. We've taught her to
eat from her own bowls, though she still tries to snatch a bite of Gypsy
Rose's when her own bowl is empty. We've taught her to wait at the
kitchen doorway while her food is being readied and not to go to her
food bowls until given permission. She's done incredibly well with
that, too.

The problem we're having is that she just harasses Gypsy Rose
constantly, mostly wanting to play but her play is a bit rough and Gypsy
Rose is older. And two big dogs hurtling thru the house isn't a good
thing (both are house dogs, we don't do yard dogs).

I know in part it's Dakota's fear of not getting enough, whether it be
food, attention, whatever, due to her history. She's happy with us but
I don't think she likes sharing us. So she harasses Gypsy Rose, just
bugs her nonstop like a bratty little sister. She doesn't try to hurt
her, she just pesters.

She knows it's not acceptable to us but on this issue, we haven't found
the trick in getting her to obey us for any length of time. We might
get her to back off and go do something else but 10 minutes later, she's
back at it.

She's now about 10 months old, full of energy, hormonal (but fixed), and
prior to us, I don't think she'd ever been in a house. So it's all new
for her. We do not have a fenced yard so she's limited to walks for
exercise.

Gypsy Rose doesn't help... she figured out that if she instigates Dakota
to bother her, Dakota gets in trouble. So we believe Gypsy Rose is
egging it on.

Can anyone offer any suggestions on how to get the two dogs to stay calm
around each other? Not go into high gear?

Shari

--
Windows and Macintosh shareware games
Blackjack game
http://www.gypsyware.com

"Shari" wrote in message
...
Okay, here goes...

Many years ago I adopted a dog from the pound, she was the most
incredibly good dog and has been with me for over ten years. She is now
in her teens. Maybe 12-13? A large breed dog, part Keeshund and
possibly part Shepherd. She is very well trained and knows over 60
different commands/phrases. Her name is Gypsy Rose.

We knew we'd get another dog when her time came, and debated on whether
to get one now, or after. The logic was that now, she could help us
train a new dog by example, and supposedly younger dogs breathe life
into older ones. But we didn't make the decision, we looked around but
never really decided. Until one day we encountered a dog unexpectedly
and adopted her, another dog pound special.

The logic was flawed, and when Dakota's time comes waay down the road,
we'll wait until the after. But that doesn't help us now. We're in it
for the long haul.

Dakota was 8 months when we adopted her, and was a yo-yo dog. She'd
been at the pound twice. It was obvious nobody had taken the time to
train her, and she's come a long way in our care. We've had her for
about 9 weeks.

We've taught her sit, lay down, stay, up (the stairs), go away, come,
and a couple others, including some hand signals. We've taught her to
eat from her own bowls, though she still tries to snatch a bite of Gypsy
Rose's when her own bowl is empty. We've taught her to wait at the
kitchen doorway while her food is being readied and not to go to her
food bowls until given permission. She's done incredibly well with
that, too.

The problem we're having is that she just harasses Gypsy Rose
constantly, mostly wanting to play but her play is a bit rough and Gypsy
Rose is older. And two big dogs hurtling thru the house isn't a good
thing (both are house dogs, we don't do yard dogs).

I have had the same sort of thing with my male dog Muttley, who is about 3,
and female Lucky, who is about 2. At first it seemed like Lucky wanted to
play, while Muttley wanted to chill out, but then it seemed more like
Muttley was resource guarding me from her attentions.


I know in part it's Dakota's fear of not getting enough, whether it be
food, attention, whatever, due to her history. She's happy with us but
I don't think she likes sharing us. So she harasses Gypsy Rose, just
bugs her nonstop like a bratty little sister. She doesn't try to hurt
her, she just pesters.

She knows it's not acceptable to us but on this issue, we haven't found
the trick in getting her to obey us for any length of time. We might
get her to back off and go do something else but 10 minutes later, she's
back at it.

Same here. I could get them to "knock it off" for a little while, but then
they'd stare at each other and it would start again. It was worst when they
both got on the bed (especially when I was also there).


She's now about 10 months old, full of energy, hormonal (but fixed), and
prior to us, I don't think she'd ever been in a house. So it's all new
for her. We do not have a fenced yard so she's limited to walks for
exercise.

I found that they seemed to play/fight until I asked them if they wanted to
go out, and then they both stopped and waited for me to put on their
leashes and go for a while. I think they had me trained.


Gypsy Rose doesn't help... she figured out that if she instigates Dakota
to bother her, Dakota gets in trouble. So we believe Gypsy Rose is
egging it on.

I would usually tell Muttley to stop it, but sometimes Lucky would give him
a little nip and start it up again. I think they mostly enjoyed it,
although it looked and sounded pretty rough (two 75 lb dogs).

Can anyone offer any suggestions on how to get the two dogs to stay calm
around each other? Not go into high gear?

Yesterday and last night I let them continue their interactions with only a
few timeouts when it seemed to be getting out of control. Finally they both
seemed exhausted and plopped on the floor. They've been much better behaved
today.

They seemed to get along well during the first 2-3 weeks, which is
supposedly the "honeymoon" period. Then for about the next 6-8 weeks until
now, it seemed to be getting worse, with occasional bright spots when I
thought all was OK. Of course, they are both adult dogs, while yours is
still an adolescent, and all dogs are different. But mine were both street
dogs rescued from the pound, so they might share similarities in their
early history.

I make sure both dogs get a lot of attention and affection. I think they
both want to please me, most of the time. I've been fairly lax with
training, and I've done some things that others say were wrong, such as
letting them both eat from one plate, or sharing a bone. But maybe that
also helped them work out their issues with each other?

I'm not an experienced dog owner, particularly with multiple dogs, but for
now, at least, there is peace in the den.

Paul, Muttley and Lucky

I've heard a lot of advice from various sources:

1. Let them fight it out to establish the pecking order. Haven't tried
this one, don't know the wisdom of it and the age difference is so vast.
Size wise they are similar. While part of their issue is that the
younger dog wants the Alpha spot, part of the issue is that they do want
to play, too much.

2. Teaching them the Back Off command. I've been working on this one,
walking into the dog while saying Back Off. The older dog already knows
it, the younger one is learning it, but understanding and obeying are
two different things. Their desire to have at it is so strong, neither
wants to obey this.

3. Equal time, equal attention, equal petting. Guilty. The younger
one requires so much extra attention for her training, the older one
doesn't get equal time. Equal treats and food, yes. Note that in all
we've had to teach her, housebreaking was another hurdle. She hadn't
been housebroken. She is now. Or about 95%. She still occasionally
let's a few drops out if she gets overexcited.

4. Give them treats when they are in close proximity and behaving well.

5. Putting the instigator into "doggie jail", separating the instigator
from the rest of us for awhile immediately after they instigate.

Has anyone succeeded using any of these methods?

--
Windows and Macintosh shareware games
Blackjack game
http://www.gypsyware.com

I confess, your site is very hard to read. I googled for a downloadable
PDF version of your manual. Much easier on the eyeballs :-) I look
forward to reading it. Google is a wonderful tool!


In article .com,
"Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Resea rch_Laboratory@HotMai
l.Com"
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Resea rch_Laboratory@HotMai
l.Com wrote:

Here's my website:
http://www.freewebs.com/thesimplyamazingpuppywizard

There you will find ALL the FREE information you need
to know to pupperly handle raise and train your pets
and family {}: ~ )

--
Windows and Macintosh shareware games
Blackjack game
http://www.gypsyware.com

In article ,
Shari wrote:
I know in part it's Dakota's fear of not getting enough, whether it be
food, attention, whatever, due to her history. She's happy with us but
I don't think she likes sharing us. So she harasses Gypsy Rose, just
bugs her nonstop like a bratty little sister. She doesn't try to hurt
her, she just pesters.

I've been in that situation, although with my dogs it was
just that the younger dog wanted to play and had a
ridiculous amount of energy. I do think you're probably
reading too much intentionality into Gypsy Rose's behavior.

The first thing is that you really need to define some safe
space for the older dog, whether it's a room, a crate, or
whatever. She needs a place where she can go to get away
from the puppy (at 10 months Dakota is still a puppy).

Second, you need better play outlets for Dakota. Is there
an off-leash dog park in your area? What about strenuous
hikes? She's at an age where her energy is peaking but
where she's not yet mature enough to have much self-
control, so in addition to teaching her self-control it's
good to find outlets for the energy.

Another thing is to take Dakota to obedience class. It
already sounds like you're doing really, really well with
training, but an obedience class would give her a weekly
outing that's all her own and also provides a structured
environment in which she'd learn to concentrate amid
distractions and around a lot of other dogs.

But the main thing is vigilance. Dakota is doing what young
dogs do. She can learn not to and it sounds like you're
doing really well by your dogs, but she has to learn
self-control and until she does it's up to you to protect
the older dog, who really deserves and needs her own safe
space.

Any chance you can fence your yard? Not to move your dogs
out there, but to give them an outside off-leash play space
where Dakota can run her brains out, and Gypsy Rose can go
to get away from the puppy?
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

Shari wrote:

We knew we'd get another dog when her time came, and debated on whether
to get one now, or after. The logic was that now, she could help us
train a new dog by example, and supposedly younger dogs breathe life
into older ones. But we didn't make the decision, we looked around but
never really decided. Until one day we encountered a dog unexpectedly
and adopted her, another dog pound special.


I'm no expert on 2 dog households so take this for what it's worth, but
I do see some things you can do to make things easier on your older dog.


Separate feeding. At meal time, the dogs go into separate rooms. Each
is given her bowl of food and 10 minutes alone with it. Then the bowls
are picked up until the next meal.


I wouldn't worry so much about giving equal treatment. Since Dakota is
a younger dog with greater exercise needs, give Dakota extra outside
time with you for longer walk/runs. If you can swing it, take Dakota
swimming. When she comes home, she'll be healthily exhausted. Is there
a dog park near? Let the dogs there engage her in a good game of tag.
Even if Gypsy weren't in the picture, a tired dog is a good dog, and it
sounds like Dakota, at 10 months, needs an outlet for energy.


Stop thinking of crate time as doggie jail, and stop anthropomorphizing
to the point of considering who instigates. When dogs start
roughhousing inside, they go to their crates for a chance to cool off
and relax. Gypsy should be glad for her safe place to snooze without
being bothered by the young upstart, and Dakota should be getting used
to her own safe den.


Do NOT let them establish their own hierarchy. You're the one in
charge. That's all they need to know.


--Lia

In article ,
Julia Altshuler wrote:
Separate feeding. At meal time, the dogs go into separate rooms.

What? No! Same room, separate bowls and separate spaces.
Here's hoping the dogs are going to be together a long, long
time and if they are it's never too soon to start training.
If you're not up to training you can manage it by crate
feeding.

Do NOT let them establish their own hierarchy. You're the one in
charge. That's all they need to know.

What? No! The dogs are going to establish their own
hierarchy regardless of what you have to say about it. What
you can control is how they express their relationship -
what's appropriate behavior, what's inappropriate behavior,
and what's flat-out intolerable behavior.

I really think you need to live in a multi-dog situation
before you can really hope to understand dogs' social lives.
What happens between a human and a dog is not much like what
happens between dogs, and extrapolating from one to the
other isn't likely to produce great results. You said
"Don't anthropomorphize," which I agree with 100%. So,
don't anthropomorphize interactions, either.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

We're actually looking into fencing our yard. We have a HUGE yard so
obviously cost is a factor. I wanted a fence long before Dakota. It
would give her a play area that she simply cannot have in the house.
I've tried to tie her out when I work in the yard but within two minutes
she chewed thru the 50 rope and was off and running. Funny thing is,
she didn't run far. Right up the stairs onto the deck waiting to go
back in the house. That's her happy place, indoors.

Chains she gets tangled in such a way I'm afraid she'll hurt herself. I
don't trust dog fences. Someone was actually going to give us one but
I'm just not trusting of them. I've seen dogs plow right thru when they
are highly motivated.

Gypsy Rose is trained enough to stay in the yard, so she has lots of
freedom outdoors when we're doing yard things. And she obeys even from
a distance, so she is incredibly wonderful. Looking forward to Dakota
achieving that place.

They eat well together. Dakota initially bullied Gypsy Rose away from
her food bowls and attempted to guard all the food, even though their
bowls are several feet apart. But we've gotten her doing wonderfully,
now she eats from her bowls and Gypsy Rose eats from her own.

Very little troubles there except that Gypsy Rose is accustomed to
picking at her food all day so she doesn't eat all at once. This
presents a problem with food just sitting all day so we end up
separating her for part of the day until she finishes eating or putting
her food up for awhile. That temptation is just beyond Dakota at the
moment. (She was starved when we adopted her, bones all showing thru so
she has issues about food, the fear of not getting enough.)

We're working on breaking her of a chewing problem as well, in addition
to having to potty train an 8 month old wild child. The potty training
is almost perfect now, very rare accidents if she gets overexcited so
we're on our way on this issue.

Dakota has a crate for when we have to leave for work or somewhere. If
we're home, she's out 95% of the time but when we go, she has to be
crated. She's a long way from being trusted alone anywhere. We
couldn't even give her a blanket to lay on in the crate because she
chewed it to pieces while we were gone.

When we are home she is with someone at all times and doesn't try to
chew anything. No big chewing problems. It's when nobody's around that
the Devil Dog erupts. We've given her a lot of outlets for chewing, the
house is littered with various chew toys.

She is full of energy far beyond the rest of us right now. So yes, she
needs more outlets for it. On that note, off we go for a walk....

--
Windows and Macintosh shareware games
Blackjack game
http://www.gypsyware.com

In article ,
Shari wrote:
We're actually looking into fencing our yard. We have a HUGE yard so
obviously cost is a factor.

It depends! I'm on 13 acres, but I fenced off a manageable
chunk of that surrounding the back of the house. But yes,
good fencing can be pricey, and good fencing that's not ugly
can be *really* pricey.

Chains she gets tangled in such a way I'm afraid she'll hurt herself. I
don't trust dog fences. Someone was actually going to give us one but
I'm just not trusting of them. I've seen dogs plow right thru when they
are highly motivated.

Right - I don't have a lot of use for those things, either.
Have you looked into a trolley tie-out? They run above the
dog's head and there's less opportunity to become tangled.
They do require two things to anchor the trolley to. See,
for example, http://www.tieouts.com/id83.html.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

Melinda Shore wrote:

Have you looked into a trolley tie-out? They run above the
dog's head and there's less opportunity to become tangled.
They do require two things to anchor the trolley to. See,
for example, http://www.tieouts.com/id83.html.

One advantage of a trolly tie-out is that after you no longer
need to use it as a tie out, you can turn it into a dog toy.

We hooked a leash onto the slider, and a "fuzzy ball" toy onto
the end of the leash (any toy you can hook to the leash should
do). Dylan and Oppie spent many a fun hour tugging on the fuzzy
ball, running back and forth with it, trying to dislodge it. And
we'd stand at one end of the line and hurl the erratically moving
ball down to the other end, for the dogs to chase and retrieve.

FurPaw

--
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched,
every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense
a theft from those who hunger and are not fed,
those who are cold and are not clothed."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

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