As part of a discussion on Harlequin color pattern and the ability of breeds
other than Danes to produce it, this link popped up. Very interesting, to
say the least: http://xoomer.alice.it/matesser/spott.htm Since the same
breeder also appears to have produced yet another pup with similar markings,
I'm thinking there is something strange in the lines they're using:
http://xoomer.alice.it/matesser/nuovarri.htm

Suja

"Suja" wrote in
:

As part of a discussion on Harlequin color pattern and the ability of
breeds other than Danes to produce it,

What did you find in your discussion about that? Collie-type breeds like
Collie, Sheltie and Australian Shepherd have this "tweed" pattern, a verion
of merle which could be identical to harlequin.

http://xoomer.alice.it/matesser/spott.htm Since the same breeder also
appears to have produced yet another pup with similar markings, I'm
thinking there is something strange in the lines they're using:
http://xoomer.alice.it/matesser/nuovarri.htm

I've seen that first link before, but not the second. This is not the
"harlequin thing", and this is not piebald (color + white) either. This
kind of irregular eumelanin/phaeomelanin patching is sometimes seen in dogs
which are genetically ee recessive yellows. Well, it is actually so common
that about every ee dog has at least one dark hair somewhere, but bigger,
clearly visible dark spots are rare and this kind of pattern seen in the
links is super rare.

The best explanation I've heard for this:
In these cases a dog is genetically ee, but in some cells one of those e
alleles has for some reason mutated back to E during embryo development,
and so the "real pattern" is partially visible. As Labradors are solid
darks (blacks or browns, genetically dominant blacks), these dark patches
on them are always black or brown. Other breeds might show other colors in
these dark patches. Like one Westie pup I saw years ago: its weird belly
spot had been jet black when it was born, but was quickly turning grizzled
grey at the age of 4 weeks - showing that Westies might have G type greying
if they weren't solid white!

Another explanation is chimaera, a combination of two embryos. So parts of
the dog belong to one individual, other parts belong to the other and these
parts have at least slightly different genes - including color.

This condition can't be duplicated, it is not inheritable. These pups just
born when you least expect! Most of these dogs are sold to pet homes and
not used for breeding, and the ones which smaller spots which have been
bred have done it like any normal ee dogs, as far as I know.

Here's a bad photo of a Rumanian stray dog which is ee yellow but has a
small dark spot on shoulder:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/sarakontu/colors/romlaikku.jpg

This apricot Poodle (genetically ee) has also a spot on shoulder:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/sarakontu/koi...lliseelaik.jpg
Its spot was jet black when it was born, but has diluted into some kind of
dirty grey. The dog is a show dog anyway, and its owner told that most
judges don't pay attention to such a minor color fault.

Liisa

"Liisa Sarakontu" wrote in message:

What did you find in your discussion about that?

It was in the context of finding Dachshunds advertised as being Harlequin.
I think the general consensus was that in Dachshunds at least, it might be
double dapples being passed off as Harlequin, and that in Min-Pins (another
breed where Harlequin has existed, historically), it has been bred out.

This condition can't be duplicated, it is not inheritable.

I wish I knew enough Italian to figure out if the second pup was out of the
same sire or dam or had some relation to the first. If that trait is not
inheritable, and this sort of prominent marking is exceedingly uncommon,
wouldn't this be a case of lightening striking twice?

Suja

"Suja" wrote in
:

It was in the context of finding Dachshunds advertised as being
Harlequin. I think the general consensus was that in Dachshunds at
least, it might be double dapples being passed off as Harlequin,

Yes, homozygous merles could sometimes look like harlequins.

that in Min-Pins (another breed where Harlequin has existed,
historically), it has been bred out.

Actually Min Pins (as we know the breed) never had harl or merle. It was a
separate breed, Harlequin Pinscher, but it was most likely rather closely
related to German Pinscher and Mini Pinscher, its size was about halfway
between these two. Probably WWII killed the breed (like it nearly wiped out
German Pinsher). Harlequin Pinscher was accepted by FCI only after it has
gone nearly extinct (after WWII, I think), and it was removed from the FCI
breed list (early 1960's?) after there had been no registrations for a
certain time. Probably the only breed which has managed to get an FCI
status and go extinct.

I wish I knew enough Italian to figure out if the second pup was out of
the same sire or dam or had some relation to the first.

My Italian is good enough to order a pizza and wine, and that's about it!
But luckily there are dictionaries. The first weird patterned Lab, Spot is
from "Fred" and "Olga", their own dogs. The other most likely isn't. Its
pedigree isn't shown, but that text there means something like "Links to
the sites of dam and sire". Stallone means stud, and fattrice means
broodmare (and most likely brood bitch too). Fred and Olga don't seem to be
from those two kennels, so I guess that the second pup isn't related.

Liisa