Hi folks,

I have a 4 year old Miniature Schnauzer. A few months ago, he had
surgery to remove 5 stones from his bladder. The stones were analyzed
and found to be Calcium Oxalate.

My question is: what do people recommend for a diet for this
condition? He's been on the Royal Canin Urinary SO diet for a few
months now. I've heard so many bad things about RX diets (full of
fillers and less than desirable ingredients) and there are many
questions as to whether these types of diets even work for these types
of stones.

To add to it all, my new vet only carries Science Diet, no Royal
Canin. I'm questioning whether I want to switch to that food.

If anyone has any advice, I'd love to hear it. I don't want my little
guy to have to endure another surgery but I also don't want to feed
him crap if it's not even going to help.

TIA,
Jen

jt spoke these words of wisdom in
oups.com:

Hi folks,

I have a 4 year old Miniature Schnauzer. A few months ago, he had
surgery to remove 5 stones from his bladder. The stones were analyzed
and found to be Calcium Oxalate.

My question is: what do people recommend for a diet for this
condition? He's been on the Royal Canin Urinary SO diet for a few
months now. I've heard so many bad things about RX diets (full of
fillers and less than desirable ingredients) and there are many
questions as to whether these types of diets even work for these types
of stones.

To add to it all, my new vet only carries Science Diet, no Royal
Canin. I'm questioning whether I want to switch to that food.

If anyone has any advice, I'd love to hear it. I don't want my little
guy to have to endure another surgery but I also don't want to feed
him crap if it's not even going to help.

TIA,
Jen




It IS going to help. Diet is the the remedy for calcium oxalate crystal
prevention. The fillers are FIBER, and fiber is a critical part of the
digestive process.

It was added for a reason.

Your previous fiber free diet didn't work out so well and caused long term,
life long health issues. So why not give it a try?

jt spoke these words of wisdom in
oups.com:

Hi folks,

I have a 4 year old Miniature Schnauzer. A few months ago, he had
surgery to remove 5 stones from his bladder. The stones were analyzed
and found to be Calcium Oxalate.

My question is: what do people recommend for a diet for this
condition? He's been on the Royal Canin Urinary SO diet for a few
months now. I've heard so many bad things about RX diets (full of
fillers and less than desirable ingredients) and there are many
questions as to whether these types of diets even work for these types
of stones.

To add to it all, my new vet only carries Science Diet, no Royal
Canin. I'm questioning whether I want to switch to that food.

If anyone has any advice, I'd love to hear it. I don't want my little
guy to have to endure another surgery but I also don't want to feed
him crap if it's not even going to help.

TIA,
Jen




It IS going to help. Diet is the the remedy for calcium oxalate crystal
prevention. The fillers are FIBER, and fiber is a critical part of the
digestive process.

It was added for a reason.

Your previous fiber free diet didn't work out so well and caused long term,
life long health issues. So why not give it a try?

jt spoke these words of wisdom in
oups.com:

Hi folks,

I have a 4 year old Miniature Schnauzer. A few months ago, he had
surgery to remove 5 stones from his bladder. The stones were analyzed
and found to be Calcium Oxalate.

My question is: what do people recommend for a diet for this
condition? He's been on the Royal Canin Urinary SO diet for a few
months now. I've heard so many bad things about RX diets (full of
fillers and less than desirable ingredients) and there are many
questions as to whether these types of diets even work for these types
of stones.

To add to it all, my new vet only carries Science Diet, no Royal
Canin. I'm questioning whether I want to switch to that food.

If anyone has any advice, I'd love to hear it. I don't want my little
guy to have to endure another surgery but I also don't want to feed
him crap if it's not even going to help.

TIA,
Jen

In Miniature Schnauzer's, as well as dalmatians, Calcium oxalate stones are
a well known genetic phenomenon. For prevention a diet low in protein and
oxalates and high in magnesium, phosphorus, and calcium is recommended.
Increased dietary magnesium and phosphorus decreases the amount of calcium
in the urine, and increased dietary calcium reduces absorption of oxalates
from the intestines.
The fillers that you are trying to avoid are reducing the protein to try to
gain the effect of lowering the protein. If you have a diet high in meat,
how would you try to lower the protein? It sounds like the diets that you
prefer for your dog are precipitating the events you want to avoid.

I'd go with the prescription diets if I were you.

Marshall Lev Dermer said in
rec.pets.dogs.health:

My Havanese, Max, had (CO) bladder stones when he
was about three.

For some reason, I keep forgetting that Max is a Havanese.

I've only known two closely, and one is close to the top of my
list of most favourite dog.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

On Oct 7, 3:14 pm, Marshall Lev Dermer wrote:
Marshall Lev Dermer wrote:
My Havanese, Max, had (CO) bladder stones when he was about three.
People at RPDH advised me to consult with a veterinary nutritionist and
I found Rebeca Remillard he

http://www.petdiets.com/
http://www.petdiets.com/aboutfounder.asp

She formulated a diet for Max. The major feature of the diet is
that it is low in oxalate. Max's diet primarily consists of black eyed
peas, brown rice, calcium carbonate, multivitamins, flax seed oil,
sodium chloride, and potassium chloride. (But there are other ways
of formulating a low oxalate diet--with meat!)

In addition, I administer potassium citrate to keep his urine
slightly basic (PH range: 6.75-8.00). It took me several months
to find the right dose of potassium citrate so his urine's PH
was in the right range and so there were no crystals in his urine.

Remillard also consulted with my dog's veterinarian in developing
the diet and the initial fee (much cheaper back then) includes
a (doggy) life-time of consults.

As Max aged he has developed other problems and so came to take
other agents such as Actigal for his gall bladder. The
later agent is a bile salt/acid and so I had to adjust the
level of potassium citrate again. And again, when
he began taking Glucosamine with Chondroitin Sulfate.

Some would complain that the work never ends, but I consider
these efforts a labor of love.

I fix a batch of Max's food once a month. It takes a little
over an hour and he is constantly on "food patrol"
for rice or peas to hit the floor.

Max will ten years old this Oct 24th. I cherish his
time with me.

--Marshall

PS: My wife says that if she dies before me she, if possible,
wants to be reincarnated as my dog!!

If you consult with Dr. Remillard's firm and
place your
beloved dog on a low oxalate diet you will want to
track
the PH of your dog's urine (as a way of
controlling crystal
formation).

Here is the story with Max:

Max's urine is acidic in the morning (5:15 AM)
and becomes more basic as the day continues.

When he had stones his urine PH was acidic
at about 5.6, probably in the afternoon. So, it
was probably even more acidic in the early
morning. Oxalate stones form in acidic urine.

Now his urine PH is about 6.8 in the AM and
about 8..0 at night. Why the big difference from
5.6 in the afternoon?

I add potassium citrate to his evening meal.
How much? Well the dose based on his
body weight was 10 X more than needed. I found
the right dose by measuring his urine PH about
4 times per day.

As I did this I started administering smaller
and smaller amounts of the potassium citrate
tablet (. Eventually I started crushing the tablet
with a mortar and pestel and administering the
crystals.

I fashioned a scoop by drilling a hole
in the handle of a plastic tooth brush. If the
hole was
too large I stuffed in some aluminum foil. (I
can send you photo.The dose is about .035 gms
and Max weighs about 17 lbs.[7.8 KGS].)

I searched and searched for an easy to read
PH paper. These are the best:

Macherey-Nagel pH-FIX 4.5-10.0

With shipping they cost about $27 on the net.
I have bought them from wine making
suppliers, chemistry suppliers, and even
automotive suppliers.

You can make them last twice as long
by cutting each strip in two with a scissors.

Finally, when you change your dog's diet
it can take quite a while, say a week, before its
system stabilizes. This is called hysteresis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteresis

Once his PH was in the correct range,
I had his urine examined for crystals:
early in the morning and later in the
afternoon. This helped me further adjust
the PH. The crystal studies were done
about two years ago and they may
have not been necessary in that I have
not repeated them but have just
monitored his urine's PH.

One more thing. You really should
consider all you feed your dog.
When it comes to snacks I make
certain that his snacks are low
oxalate. There is a low oxalate diet
for women. You can find more info
he

http://www.branwen.com/rowan/oxalate.htm

Because there is so much concern about
oxalate, you can find charts that describe
oxalate content.

Max most often snacks on melon and
eggs. He also chews on raw hides.

Good luck to all who face this problem.

--Marshall

Thanks Marshall for all your great information! I'll be sure to keep
you updated.

-Jen