While visiting these last 2 weeks, Jim's mother told the story several
times of when they first got Pal, the family dog, when the kids were in
elementary school. They took him on a camping trip. When they found
the site where they wanted to set up their tent, Pal wouldn't get out of
the car. They tried to coax him out, but he refused. He'd been in cars
before and never had trouble with going in or out of them. They left
him in the car and started to set up. A short while later, they
realized that there was a hive of bees near by. Camping there would be
uncomfortable as they dodged bees all day. They chose another spot, and
Pal hopped out readily. Jim's mother concludes that they got a smart
dog, one who knew there were bees there before the rest of them did.


I'm curious why, out of all the memories, this one gets repeated
sometimes twice a day. Obviously, as her short term memory is going,
she doesn't realize that she's telling a story at lunch that was just
mentioned at breakfast, but why that one and not others?


--Lia

"Julia Altshuler" wrote in message
. ..
I'm curious why, out of all the memories, this one gets repeated sometimes
twice a day. Obviously, as her short term memory is going, she doesn't
realize that she's telling a story at lunch that was just mentioned at
breakfast, but why that one and not others?

You have asked one of the unanswerables.

While doing jigsaw puzzles - she can still manage the 300 piece large sized
ones - my mother tells us every single time about her grandmother calling
her "itty, bitty baby". (She was an only grandchild and lived just across
the street.) Since this was the grandmother who taught her Competitive
JigSawing (bet you didn't know it was a sport), that part makes sense. But
yeah, every time. Sometimes repeated within five minutes.

The neurologist explained to us that as they lose short-term memory, that
they actually regress in a semi-logical order. First things lost are the
short-term memories. Then they will go back year-by-year. I can see that
my mother really has little memory of five years ago - or even ten. So it
makes the concept of time a little interesting. It also makes it easier for
them to hide the extent of the memory loss, because they actually living in
a time other than what you are.

My best guess is that Jim's mother doesn't think that it was THAT long ago -
it may seem like a more recent memory to her, and therefore worth remarking
on.

I've noticed also that something that we may not have noticed sometimes sets
off a memory for Mom. And then it's like it's caught in a loop - sort of
like that song that you can't get out of your head - until something else
replaces it.

Judy

montana wildhack wrote:

Pretty typical of cognitive disorders. In olden days, we'd say the
record was skipping. Why one story and not another? I'm not aware of any
research, but anecdotally I have seen and heard about this for years.

Our friends with Alzheimer's have had a few memories cling nearly to the
end. Other disorders cause the brain to "skip" as well.


I'm at the very beginning of this journey. I know I'm going to have to
do a lot of research into aging and memory loss. I'm not looking
forward to it. The little that I do know is that it's a complex
subject. Not everyone who loses memory does it in the same way. That's
already apparent from my father and my mother-in-law. There's also the
emotional thing on my end. Seeing my mother-in-law's diminished
abilities makes me want to do the right thing while it also annoys the
hell out of me. With my Dad, I just want to tremble and cry. Luckily,
Dad doesn't seem to be in such bad shape so that's another subject for
another day.


I can't help reaching for psycho-analytic conclusions. For example,
there's a story that gets told once/visit about my sister-in-law taking
off all her clothes to play in a puddle when she was 3 years old. It
isn't much of a story, but it does embarass the target which I suppose
is the point-- or is it. A story that never gets told has to do with
the way that same daughter was an excellent student in highschool, was
valedictorian of her class, has a master's in engineering from a time
when it was rare for women to enter that field, and has been successful
in a satisfying career for many years. That never gets mentioned. I'm
willing to guess that mother attended graduation ceremonies and was
proud, but that never got stuck in a groove.


My m-i-l's memory loss seems to be entirely very short term. She was
always someone to ask the time before looking at her watch. Now she
asks, gets an answer, and asks again in the next minute for 4-5
repetitions. Visual cues seem to get her caught in a loop. She'll see
sliced tomatoes on the table, ask if anyone would like them, learn that
daughter and I never eat tomatoes, ask if Jim would like them, learn
that he just served himself some, then see the tomatoes again less than
a minute later and repeat. I believe that if the visual cue were gone,
there wouldn't be the repeat.


There were times when she asked if we'd had lunch yet. I think the
visual cue in that case was the 3 of us fussing in the kitchen. She
couldn't tell if we were putting things on the table or taking them off.


The hard part is knowing the right way to handle any of this. So far,
we've just answered the questions. We don't want her to feel bad. But
then she wants to be able to drive, and there's no way she's functioning
well enough for that. We don't know who we should let be the bad guy
for not allowing it. We don't know if we should point to the memory
slips as amunition in the argument that she can't possibly drive.


She's still kind, cheerful and unprejudiced. That's a relief, but she
was never someone to take an interest in the larger world or think
things through on a conceptual or big-picture level so it's hard to say
if she's being herself or how much of a change there's been.


Oh, to make this dog related-- She's always been a dog person. They had
dogs on the farm when she was growing up, and she's always been great
with them. Where in the past she always took everything I said
seriously, now I've been able to get playful with her, and she takes it
in good humor. She says she wants a dog, and while that's out of the
question between her inability to take care of one and her daughter's
allergies when visiting, instead of reminding her that she can't have a
dog, every time the subject comes up, I've been asking her what kind
she'd like, and we've been having lovely play-pretend sessions where I
say she should get an Old English Sheepdog or a Saint Bernard to go with
a horse and sheep.


--Lia

montana wildhack wrote:

And not all causes are properly diagnosed. It's terrible in many respects.

The bonus is that you can probably tell the same story a hundred times
and a hundred times it will seem fresh. You don't have to worry about
new material all the time.


With other diseases/disabilities, the big advantage to getting a correct
diagnosis is getting an appropriate treatment. With memory loss/
dementia/ Alzheimer's/ stroke/ I can't see that knowing the cause makes
a huge difference.


I agree with you about the same material seeming fresh to the teller,
but what about the listeners? (I know I'm being humor impaired, but I'm
not at the point of finding anything about this funny yet. Give it
time.) Are the listeners supposed to answer the same question over and
over, laugh at the same story despite boredom, act like nothing's the
matter, never try to change the teller's behavior?


--Lia

"Julia Altshuler" wrote in message
...
Are the listeners supposed to answer the same question over and
over, laugh at the same story despite boredom, act like nothing's the
matter, never try to change the teller's behavior?

Yes. Because even more than with "normal" other people, you can't change
their behavior. You can only change your reaction to it.

Early on, you can probably convince them that they are repeating themselves.
But all you accomplish with that is to make them feel badly about
themselves. They end up embarrassed. You might notice that dementia
sufferers get quiet and don't join conversations easily. This starts when
they realize that they might make a mistake with anything they say. Then
the time comes - usually first in a noisy, busy environment - when they
really are struggling to follow what is happening around them. So
participating in a conversation is way too much work.

Later on, you can't convince them that it's happening. What they see and
think and do is *their* reality and you can't argue them out of it any more
than I could convince you that YOU are the one with the memory loss and that
your MIL is fine. You KNOW that's not true and they know what they know
just as certainly.

That concern about time is pretty common. I think it's because all of our
lives time if very important to us. It *matters* if it's five o'clock or
lunchtime. So they remember the part where it is important to know long
after they can keep track of it themselves. What you also have to do is try
to look behind the words. If she's asking what time it is over and over, is
it because she's concerned about something that is going to happen and that
she needs to be ready for? Instead of saying for the tenth time that it's
2:30, find out why it matters so much. I'll say - "It's 2:30 - do you have
a hot date?" Or "Your appointment is at 9:30 - we have lots of time to get
there".

And in the case of feeding you, I think that's pretty common also for
mothers. My mother worries when we are there that we are hungry or that
it's mealtime and thinks that if so that she should feed us. One of the
funniest stories, from a year ago now, was that she insisted on making
coffee for DH because she *knew* that he would want it. So he agreed and
coffee was made. When it was ready, she got up and poured a cup of coffee.
Carried it into the living room, walking right past DH and then sat down and
drank it herself. Never offered him one then. He blinked a couple of times
and got up and poured his own coffee.

We had a LOT of the repeated questions last Thanksgiving and Christmas. She
*knew* that it was important to do things to get ready but she had no idea
if they were getting done. So she kept worrying. And then (take a deep
breath here) after we had ten people at her house for Thanksgiving dinner
and we had all left and my brother (who lives with her) had just finished
loading the dishwasher, she started setting the table. Because she had to
get ready for all those people to come tomorrow for Thanksgiving.

And then the times will come when you will not only answer the same question
over and over and try very hard to not change the sound of your voice the
eleventh time but that she will tell you something that is patently not
true. My MIL sometimes hears people in her house and even destroyed her
bedroom one night with her cane when she became convinced that these people
had wired the outlets to explode. At 6AM, my FIL called DH to come up
because he couldn't handle it anymore. He went up and found his father
fixing breakfast and his mother sitting on the edge of the bed, purse in
hand and coat on, just about vibrating to pieces. He determined what was
wrong, assured her that he would handle it and make certain that no one was
blowing up the house. Ten minutes later, she was eating breakfast
peacefully.

Car keys. Almost certainly by the time family members are concerned about
it, it is time to give them up. Most doctors are willing to be the bad guy
if necessary. My mother's neurologist took me aside and said "She's not
driving, is she?". At that point, she still had access to keys but hadn't
been driving. We took them away - actually had to hide them for a while -
and it was okay for a couple of weeks. Then she thought she was getting
better and should have them back. We finally had to sit down and say
"Listen, we're really concerned that you might get confused and not know
exactly where you are and get scared and we don't want you to get that
scared". Probably at that point, she would have been fine going back and
forth to the grocery store UNLESS something happened. The neurologist's
question was "Would you let your children or your grandchildren ride with
her?".

You also mentioned that she remembered your SIL in the puddle but not her
accomplishments. The truth is that she probably doesn't remember those
things as well simply because her memory is working backwards. My nephew
was graduating from high school. Mom knew that *someone* was graduating
from something - that seemed to stick with her. One day she asked me "Did
Ed (my younger brother and the nephew's father) graduate from high school?".
(Now, to be fair, he was one of those kids who didn't graduate so much as he
escaped.) I said "Yes. Yes, he did. And from college. And from graduate
school. He has a PhD and he's doing just fine.". Because what she really
wanted to hear was that he was okay.

She also sort of hides her memory loss. When my daughter (her favorite
grandchild) visited last summer, Mom was out on the back porch when we
arrived. So we were already in the kitchen when she came inside again.
There was no great greeting on Mom's part. She seemed to be happy to see
DD, but there was no excited greeting. We finally figured out later that
she couldn't remember if we had just gotten there or if we had been there
for a while. So she was unsure how to act. Because, if we had been there
and she acted like we had just arrived then boy would she look foolish.

Try your local Alzheimer's Association. They have a ton of literature and
probably even some workshops if you have the time. There are some terrific
books available.

You're right also. It really doesn't much matter what the cause is - after
you have ruled out the fixable things. My mother's dementia is probably
related to oxygen deprivation from her COPD. My MIL's is likely from
mini-strokes. Both are controlled as well as can be but they continue to be
chronic and progressive. So it's not Alzheimer's but it's close enough that
it really doesn't matter. And the coping mechanisms for the families are
the same.

And yeah, keep the sense of humor. You really, really need it. Especially
when faced with something like my MIL said - "My Thing Up Here (circling her
hand by her temple) doesn't work so good".

Judy

"montana wildhack" wrote in message
news:2007101119451884492-montana@wildhackcominvalid...
It may or may not make a big difference. Those conditions, their
treatments and effects are all different even if they look the same.

This is true in terms of the need for rule-outs particularly.

My mother - who probably doesn't have actual Alzheimer's - still gets
Aricept and Namenda just as if it were Alzheimer's. And they even seemed to
help for a while.

In the case of my MIL, normally she should have tests to determine if she
really is having mini-strokes that are causing her memory loss and strange
behavior. But her health in other ways is so bad that it really doesn't
matter. Any treatment isn't going to change the course of any of it.

Or you can just listen with
your heart and be thankful that she wants to share something with you
(even if you aren't thrilled with the gift...).

Very true. Sometimes it takes a lot of deep breathing to ge through this.
And sometimes, alcohol can help. Or ice cream.

It can tear you up, no doubt about it. You're losing someone twice. But
they're having a pretty hideous time of things, too.

All very true. I know how difficult it is for those of us watching it. But
even while watching it, I just can't imagine living it. I can't let my mind
go there because I think I'd dissolve into a pool of jell-o. And that
doesn't help anyone.

Judy

montana wildhack wrote:

If you are the teller and the memory impaired person is the listener,
it's not bad. The listener likes the communication even if he or she
will not remember the conversation. The teller doesn't have to worry
about having nothing to say today that she didn't say yesterday. The
communication changes.


You're helping me understand the dynamic. A big part of the trouble is
that my m-i-l and I never had a great deal in common before the memory
loss of the last few years. I've never gotten the sense that she was
interested in anything I had to say. When she was feistier, she'd
overtly interrupt me or look away without response when I was done
speaking. There have even been times when she's walked out of the room.
Over the years, I've gotten into the habit of not speaking when she's
present, or making a real effort not to speak in full sentences.



Your MIL had something triggering a particular memory. You can see if
there's anything behind it or around it. Or you can just listen with
your heart and be thankful that she wants to share something with you
(even if you aren't thrilled with the gift...).


Thanks. Working on it.


The best advice I
can give you is to do the best you can as far as care goes, and find
peace in communication and routine. There's a reason why there's humor
in the world. And ice cream.


She buys low fat, an abomination if ever there was one. The biggest
help has been knowing that Jim and s-i-l are aware of it too. For
years, I thought I was the only one who noticed.


If I'm put in a position of being there for hands on care more than
these 2 week visits, a job I'm willing to take on but don't have to be
happy about, I'd make sure I got out regularly for loud music and yuppie
chow. If I'm there enough, I'd take a class or join a group, find some
way of connecting with people who aren't vapid. As it is, I big part of
the stress is the flux, whether she can continue living on her own with
neighbors to do the driving, if she does move to an assisted living
facility, which one, how is it presented to her, that sort of thing. So
things are tough now but should get better in time.


--Lia

In article ,
Julia Altshuler wrote:

I agree with you about the same material seeming fresh to the teller,
but what about the listeners? (I know I'm being humor impaired, but I'm
not at the point of finding anything about this funny yet. Give it
time.) Are the listeners supposed to answer the same question over and
over, laugh at the same story despite boredom, act like nothing's the
matter, never try to change the teller's behavior?

My first bf's grandmother had Alzheimer's, the only person I've known
over a long period of time that had it. Basically, that's how most of
the family handled it, or tried to handle it (as you can probably
imagine, it isn't easy). The exception was her husband, who always
tried to correct her when she got confused, which didn't do anything
except upset her. I don't think he ever understood, or could accept,
that what was happening was something she had no control over. Everyone
else pretty much went along with everything unless she tried to do
something dangerous, like wander off.
--
boss, sometimes i think | kevin michael vail
that our friend mehitabel |
is a trifle too gay |
-- archy | wotthehell wotthehell

Judy wrote:

That concern about time is pretty common. I think it's because all of
our lives time if very important to us. It *matters* if it's five
o'clock or lunchtime.


I did notice that the time repetitions happened when we all supposed to
be somewhere. I likened it to the way I'll check my watch several times
when I have to be someplace important. And the way she asks when she's
wearing a watch or there's a clock in the room is a habit that goes way
back. She's always drawn people into what she was thinking without
considering if the other people had any reason to know.


Instead of
saying for the tenth time that it's 2:30, find out why it matters so
much. I'll say - "It's 2:30 - do you have a hot date?" Or "Your
appointment is at 9:30 - we have lots of time to get there".


This is good advice, thanks. I could probably do better at the reassurance.


One of the
funniest stories, from a year ago now, was that she insisted on making
coffee for DH because she *knew* that he would want it. So he agreed
and coffee was made. When it was ready, she got up and poured a cup of
coffee. Carried it into the living room, walking right past DH and then
sat down and drank it herself. Never offered him one then. He blinked
a couple of times and got up and poured his own coffee.


Yup. It came up at every meal over toast. The toaster takes 2 slices
of bread, so it's normal to ask if anyone else would like a slice before
putting in one of your own. Sometimes she'd get the single slice after
saying she didn't want any. Sometimes a slice would have no takers. No
biggie.


Coffee was a huge source of confusion. Jim actually stopped requiring
coffee a few months ago after a lifetime of needing it. This really was
news. (He had surgery and used his post-op Percoset to kick the habit.)
It didn't sink in so he kept telling the story over about how he'd
switched to decaf.


My MIL sometimes hears people in her house and even
destroyed her bedroom one night with her cane when she became convinced
that these people had wired the outlets to explode.


Do you mind if I ask your MIL's age? She has her husband to help. My
FIL died last winter so there would be changes even without the memory
problems. I can't picture my MIL coming up with anything so imaginative
as exploding outlets. It's evil of me, but I think I'd like it if she did.


Car keys. Almost certainly by the time family members are concerned
about it, it is time to give them up.


She hasn't been driving, but she talks like she could and should. I'm
taking the doctor-as-bad-guy advice seriously and will suggest it to the
real decision makers (her children, not me).



Try your local Alzheimer's Association. They have a ton of literature
and probably even some workshops if you have the time. There are some
terrific books available.


Thanks. I will. We have every reason to believe that the root problem
is stroke related, but I'll take help from the Alzheimer's people.
(Hey, I'm in AA!)


And yeah, keep the sense of humor. You really, really need it.


O.K., but y'all have to promise to laugh with me because when I start
saying a lot of the remarks that I'm really thinking, I'm not going to
sound like a very nice person, making fun of harmless old ladies and all.


--Lia

Judy wrote:

Very true. Sometimes it takes a lot of deep breathing to ge through
this. And sometimes, alcohol can help. Or ice cream.


How about this? We put the alcohol on the ice cream, then inhale it.


--Lia