The other problem with our Scottie is salmon disease. We have a salmon
spawning stream that runs through the middle of our yard in the Puget
Sound area. Local salmon are often infected with a fluke that carries a
bacteria that is deadly to dogs (but not cats or humans or anything
else). We cannot fence off the stream, or even our yard.

I have heard from friends who raise dogs that with a yard like ours
keeping the dog tied up on a short leash for several months of the year
is simply too impractical. They say just let her eat salmon and if she
gets salmon disease then get her treated with antibiotics and after
that she will be immune to it. Is that true and is it a reasonable
strategy? Most dog owners around here seem to agree with it.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

C J Campbell wrote:

Is that true and is it a reasonable strategy?
Most dog owners around here seem to agree with it.

Have you asked your vet about it? If the disease is deadly, then I
don't think I'd take the word of my neighbors or a bunch of
strangers on the internet.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

On 2007-11-06 09:17:57 -0800, Shelly said:

C J Campbell wrote:

Is that true and is it a reasonable strategy? Most dog owners around
here seem to agree with it.

Have you asked your vet about it? If the disease is deadly, then I
don't think I'd take the word of my neighbors or a bunch of strangers
on the internet.

I need to ask another vet about, at least. This one thought that the
flukes live in the gills of the fish and that a dog can get the disease
merely by licking a dead salmon. Most references say that this is a
liver fluke and that the dog has to eat the fish. So, at least one
other opinion would be a good idea.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
news:2007110609143877923-christophercampbell@hotmailcom...
The other problem with our Scottie is salmon disease. We have a salmon
spawning stream that runs through the middle of our yard in the Puget
Sound area.
snip
They say just let her eat salmon and if she
gets salmon disease then get her treated with antibiotics and after
that she will be immune to it. Is that true and is it a reasonable
strategy?
Did you Google?
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/ClientED/salmon.asp
http://www.capcvet.org/?p=Guidelines_Trematode&h=0&s=0

I'm not sure about the issue of immunity. What other dog owners are telling
you is what I have heard over and over. That keeping a dog who eats stuff
from getting salmon poisoning is just about impossible. Don't know what I'd
do. Certainly it depends on how healthy your dog is to begin with. Any dog
with continually itchy skin problems and GI tract problems may have a hard
time overcoming this disease as their immunity is already down the toilet.
The other thing is, if you're going to allow your dog to get it, you have to
be very aware of the fact that it usually occurs from 5-7 days from
ingestion of raw fish, but sometimes it takes over a month to get sick.
Rise of temp and no appetite seem to be the first symptoms. Again, though
this depends on your dog. Catching the symptoms immediately so it can be
treated immediately has really good results. But if you're not vigilant to
signs of your dog being a bit off and the disease progresses, then there
could be complications.

1st paper on the page seems to indicate cross immunity to other rickettsial
organisms, so I guess it's possible.
http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:1774330
* Dogs orally infected with Neorickettsia helminthoeca developed
immunoglobulin G titers against Erlichia risticii, Erlichia sennetsu, and
Erlichia canis similar to those against N. helminthoeca antigen, as
determined by immunofluorescence.*

I found the whole paper on the web, but forgot to copy/past the url before I
trashed my history. I think it's this one:
iai.asm.org/cgi/reprint/48/2/366.pdf

Vet Merck Manual says there is a strong humoral response in recovered
animals, BUT there can be a compounding effect with another neorickettsial
organism, to which there is no cross immunity.
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in...m/bc/57305.htm

While I think the vets in the area are much more likely to give you a better
answer than anyone here, unless they live in an area like yours, I'd avoid
the one who thinks the fluke lives in the gills of the fish. They don't
necessarily hang out in the liver. We've got liver flukes here in areas of
FL where there's a population of particular snails that carry them.
http://www.answers.com/topic/salmon-...cat=technology
The eggs of this parasitic flatworm incubate in freshwater streams for a
period of about three to seven months. The newly hatched miracidia randomly
find and then burrow into snails, where they develop into cercariae. The
cercariae exit the snails and move in random patterns through the water.
They can survive in this free-living form for as long as two days. When they
encounter a frog or fish, they quickly penetrate its tissue-a process that
takes 30-120 seconds-and migrate to the muscles, kidneys and fins. The host
sometimes dies from heavy infestations. Migratory fishes like salmon may
carry N. salmincola many miles. Predatory birds and mammals ingest infected
fish and frogs, and the flatworms encyst in the small intestine, where they
mature within seven days and lay eggs. The eggs pass from the definitive
host in the feces, and the life cycle begins again.

buglady
take out the dog before replying

On 2007-11-06 16:53:44 -0800, "buglady" said:


"C J Campbell" wrote in message
news:2007110609143877923-christophercampbell@hotmailcom...
The other problem with our Scottie is salmon disease. We have a salmon
spawning stream that runs through the middle of our yard in the Puget
Sound area.
snip
They say just let her eat salmon and if she
gets salmon disease then get her treated with antibiotics and after
that she will be immune to it. Is that true and is it a reasonable
strategy?
Did you Google?
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/ClientED/salmon.asp
http://www.capcvet.org/?p=Guidelines_Trematode&h=0&s=0

I'm not sure about the issue of immunity. What other dog owners are telling
you is what I have heard over and over. That keeping a dog who eats stuff
from getting salmon poisoning is just about impossible. Don't know what I'd
do. Certainly it depends on how healthy your dog is to begin with. Any dog
with continually itchy skin problems and GI tract problems may have a hard
time overcoming this disease as their immunity is already down the toilet.

With Scotties the itchy skin seems to be allergy related. As long as
she does not eat dog food that contains corn or out of plastic or metal
dishes she seems to be fine most of the time.

Probably a moot point for a few days anyway. After the fight with the
raccoon this morning her vet restricted her to being taken out on a
leash only for five days. She is on antibiotics for several nasty bites
on her face.

As for the salmon, they seem to be holding back. We have not had enough
rain to flood the creek deep enough for them. Consequently seals and
other predators have been having a field day out there. We should have
rain by Thursday, though. Our eagles appear to have given up in
disgust, but we have an enormous number of other birds gathering out
there. It is beginning to look like a scene from an Alfred Hitchcock
movie.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

"C J Campbell" wrote in message:

I need to ask another vet about, at least. This one thought that the
flukes live in the gills of the fish and that a dog can get the disease
merely by licking a dead salmon. Most references say that this is a
liver fluke and that the dog has to eat the fish. So, at least one
other opinion would be a good idea.

I have no idea about your question, but how about training the dog to leave
Salmon (dead or otherwise) alone? I'm thinking specifically of the type of
training done with dogs for things like avoiding snakes, where the first
encounter could be their last one.

Suja

On 2007-11-06 20:09:40 -0800, "Suja" said:


"C J Campbell" wrote in message:

I need to ask another vet about, at least. This one thought that the
flukes live in the gills of the fish and that a dog can get the disease
merely by licking a dead salmon. Most references say that this is a
liver fluke and that the dog has to eat the fish. So, at least one
other opinion would be a good idea.

I have no idea about your question, but how about training the dog to leave
Salmon (dead or otherwise) alone? I'm thinking specifically of the type of
training done with dogs for things like avoiding snakes, where the first
encounter could be their last one.

Suja

I have never heard of this being done successfully. How would I go about it?
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

On 2007-11-06 22:41:17 -0800, (DK) said:

C J Campbell wrote:
The other problem with our Scottie is salmon disease. We have a salmon
spawning stream that runs through the middle of our yard in the Puget
Sound area. Local salmon are often infected with a fluke that carries a
bacteria that is deadly to dogs (but not cats or humans or anything
else).

We cannot fence off the stream, or even our yard.

How come???

Because the lot varies considerably in character at different times of
the day and different seasons.

The stream runs through the middle of the yard and then down one side
of the house. There is not enough area between the driveway and the
stream to make it worth fencing, plus Fish and Game would object to a
fence along the stream that in any way interfered with either the flow
of the stream or the migration of fish. On the stream side we do have a
pole fence that runs down the edge of the lot. This fence crosses the
stream in two places where the stream meanders over to the neighbor's
lot. The main function of the fence is decorative, a place for
grandchildren and lizards to climb, and a place for the occasional
vine. Obviously, such a fence would not be effective at keeping a dog
penned up; replacing it with something else would still have to leave
room above the stream bed for seasonal changes in depth, salmon
spawning, and so forth. The stream varies in width from just a few feet
this time of year to 20 feet across in spring and summer. This time of
year it is only a few inches deep, but it can reach four or five feet
deep in the spring and summer. Our lot does have a fence down the other
side, but it is necessarily open on the beach side because the
shoreline moves more then 300 feet during the day, twice a day. Again,
it is illegal to build a fence on the beach. The rest of the front yard
is a concrete patio and boat ramp. We have no dock; if we needed one it
would have to be a float anchored off shore beyond the low tide line.

Basically, there are small areas that could be fenced off. They are
isolated by the driveway, the stream, the pump house, utility
structures, neighbors' fence, etc. None adjoin the house, so if the dog
was kept in one of these areas she would have to commute. This would
also greatly complicate lawn and garden care -- we maintain a large
vegetable garden and Japanese garden. The dog's 'place' is a 35 year
old Western Red Cedar. She uses that as her toilet. During the day, she
monitors activity on the beach and in the stream from the patio or from
the couch looking out the window. If the oyster pickers are here, she
will be among them looking for small crabs uncovered by the pickers.
She is also an avid and accomplished swimmer, able to dive to the
bottom in three feet of salt water and retrieve objects. I have seen
her swim for more than ten feet underwater, so it is not like the
shoreline or the creek would be any sort of barrier to her. I was
honestly surprised by this because I always thought that Scotties don't
like to swim. I think she learned it from watching seals and otters.

No. The dogs that do not like to swim are our neighbor's two Springer
Spaniels. I have seen them get stranded on a bit of high ground on our
beach as the tide comes in and they have to be rescued because they
cannot bring themselves to wade across an expanse of water only a few
inches deep. Go figure. At least Sonny, another neighbor's white lab,
seems to behave as you would expect a breed to behave. (Look! there are
children out there! Playing! And throwing sticks! Children playing and
throwing sticks! Letmeout letmeout letmeout!) Now that I think on it,
we have a very doggy neighborhood. I know only one neighbor who does
not have a dog; they have two Siamese cats which all the dogs persecute
mercilessly. But they are good humored about it.

We try to make sure there is a great deal of cover and food for birds,
too. Right now we have literally hundreds of ducks, murres, gulls,
loons, herons, and other water birds wintering over. In spring and
summer we have bald eagles, doves, woodpeckers, and countless varieties
of little brown birds. I could probably go out there right now and spot
more than a dozen species in a few minutes. It is a bird and nature
photographer's paradise. Badger, of course, 'helps' me when I am out
there taking pictures.


I have heard from friends who raise dogs that with a yard like ours
keeping the dog tied up on a short leash for several months of the year
is simply too impractical. They say just let her eat salmon and if she
gets salmon disease then get her treated with antibiotics and after
that she will be immune to it. Is that true and is it a reasonable
strategy? Most dog owners around here seem to agree with it.

Personally, I doubt it. Think of SPD as dog's typhus or spotted fever.
Natural immunity to it can develop but is not something that's sure to
occur (as failure of various Rickettsia vaccines in humans shows).
Better have some oxytetracycline handy and watch out for the
symptoms.

DK

Well, the symptoms are obvious enough, at least. And my parents'
Pekingese dogs never seemed to have a problem with it. Still, I don't
want Badger chasing salmon or eating dead salmon or, worst of all,
rolling in dead, rotting salmon. Ecchh. After a month or so one of
these dead chum can have the consistency of Wotan's sneeze. Getting
that off the fur can be a real pain.

I think I will simply have to police up dead fish in the immediate area
and take them to where the birds will find them quickly. If I buried
them as fertilizer the dogs would just dig them up again. As it is,
these fish do not stay in the stream. I have found them on the lawn
more than 50 feet from the stream, still flopping around and gasping
for breath. They had to cross over a high gravel bank, the driveway,
and several feet of grass to get there. They seem to lose their sense
of direction when it gets to raining hard. It is not at all uncommon
for people to see salmon 'swimming' across wet roads.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor