From: TheAmazingPuppyWizard
Subject: "If You Can't Dazzle 'em With Brilliance, Razzle 'em With
Bullshit".

HOWEDY Dr. Von,

"If You Can't Dazzle 'em With Brilliance,
Razzle 'em With Bullshit".

Can you UN RAZZLE DAZZLE us?

This behavior science stuff gives me a headache!:

---------------------------

If You Can't Be Right, Just Sling The Bull.

Jeff would fail Psych 201, Negative means "no!", "none", the opposite
of positive. negative reinforcement is NO RESPONSE. NEGATIVE
REINFORCEMENT is no response.

Aversive reinforcement is application of any stimulus which a naive
subject would avoid without prior experience (loud noise, shock,
pricks, smacks, nasty tastes, bad smells etc); you do not need to
learn an aversion, but you can teach an aversion.

When a behavior is established by use of rewards, not giving rewards
tends slowly to exhaust a reservoir of response; aversive stimuli
applied to the learned behavior will stop it more quickly than "no
response" aka negative reinforcement. (Skinner, 1938, p.154)

Williams, Carl D. "Case Report: Elimination of Tantrum Behavior by
Extinction Procedures." J. Abnorm. Soc. Psychol., 59, 1959,p. 269
reports on extinction of tyrannical tantrums using negative
reinforcement. Ignore him!

See also Berelson & Steiner, Human Behavior, Harcourt, Brace & World,
1964, NY pp 141,2,3.

There seems to be a "reservoir" which leaks out using "no response"
negative reinforcement; and is actively pumped out using aversive
reinforcement.

George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D. (psychol.)

"Jeff Dege" wrote in message news:
...
On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:34:30 -0700, FurPaw wrote:

Jeff Dege wrote:
On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 07:03:13 -0700, FurPaw wrote:

I'm not too fond of positive punishment methods,
particularly when they are (a) inconsistently
applied (b) severe (c) delayed or (d) applied
without concurrently training the dog using
positive reinforcement to make an incompatible,
desirable response.

I don't know any trainers that rely upon positive
punishment. Every trainer I've seen who used
corrections, whether with choke chains, prong collars,
ecollars, or rattle cans, used a mix of positive and
negative reinforcement.

I've often heard people use the term "correction"
(like the above trainer) in a way that I would define
as "punishment." How do you define "correction," and
what is it that differentiates between a "correction"
and a "positive punishment?"

A "correction" is an applied stimulus intended change the
behavior of the dog. It's not a technical term, so it's
meaning is rather vague.

The technical term that is the closest fit is "aversive".

"Punishment" is a word in common use, that by
itself also has a fairly vague meaning.

"Positive punishment" is a technical term rooted in Skinner's
operant conditioning, and it has a specific meaning. The
application of a stimulus that results in a behavior
occurring less.

"Negative reinforcement" is a technical term meaning the
removal of a stimulus that results in a behavior occurring
more often.

Both involve the application of aversives - stimuli that
the dog wants to avoid. The difference is timing.

If you yank on the collar when a dog pulls, and he stops
pulling, it's a positive punishment. If you yank on the
collar until the dog is in proper heel position, and the
dog starts heeling, it's negative reinforcement. If you
yank on the collar and the dog doesn't change his behavior
at all, it's neither. It's just abuse.

The trainers I've seen fall into two main camps. The
purely positive crowd will use positive reinforcement
to teach a behavior. Often with a clicker. And will
continue with positive reinforcement once the behavior
is learned, believing that with sufficient repetition
they will get reliability.

The others, the "mixed" trainers, will use positive
reinforcement to teach a behavior. Though they'll
more likely use luring than shaping with a clicker.

But once the behavior is learned, they will use
negative reinforcement to build reliability.

What makes negative reinforcement particularly effective
in building reliability is that it's self-applying. You
give a command, then apply the stimulus.

When the dog performs, the stimulus ends. It's not very
long before the dog responds immediately, and the stimulus
never happens at all.

The research indicates that dogs physiological response
to this is exactly the same as if they'd received a reward.

Skinner and his crowd notwithstanding, dog's responses are
driven by how events compare to their expectation, not to
bare stimuli.

A dog who expected a big reward and got a small one
feels punished. A dog who expected an aversive and
doesn't get it feels rewarded.

And the thing is that every time the dog responds
instantaneously, and nothing happens, he's in effect
rewarding himself.

As for positive punishment, by definition it involves
stopping a behavior. And generally speaking, the only
times we want to stop a behavior is when we're not there.

We don't want a dog to stop jumping, we want him to sit
nicely. We want him to come, to heel, to go fetch the
ball, to lie in his bed.

For all of that, positive punishment is no help.

It's the chasing livestock, jumping on the counter,
knocking over trashcans sort of thing where positive
punishment is of any use at all.

--
If there is anything the nonconformist hates worse than
a conformist it's another nonconformist who doesn't
conform to the prevailing standards of nonconformity.
- Bill Vaughan

AND HERE'S jeff dege "trainin" his own dog:

From: Jeff Dege
Date: Thurs, Sep 15 2005 3:19 pm
Email: Jeff Dege
Groups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 22:12:03 +0300, Opinicus wrote:
So would I. The problem arises when the humans don't
correctly interpret the canines' warning and don't back off.

Sometimes, humans shouldn't back off.

Case in point:

I have two chairs in front of the TV. I usually sit in
one when I'm watching, and my Bear often sits int
it when I am not.

My mother was over, and we'd both grabbed plates of
whatever and headed in to watch TV. I was first, and
Bear was in my chair.

As soon as he saw me, he hopped out and ran over and
hopped into the other chair. Without my saying a word.

When my mother approached the other chair, he growled.

This is not a situation where you want to back off.

He's growling to see if he can get away with it.

And if you let him, you're just setting
yourself up for future problems.

That said, I don't mean you should attack him, mess
about with "alpha rolls", grab his collar and pull him
off, etc. Just tell him to get off the damned chair, and
make sure he complies.
-------------------

AND IF HE DON'T, jeffie?

THEN WHAT???

BWEEEEAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

Oh, HERE'S WHAT... YOU SHOCK HIM:

From: Jeff Dege
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:58:22 -0500
Subject: Squirrell chasing / Prey drive !!!!

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 19:06:57 -0400, buzzsaw wrote:
A Loose Leash !?! Are you kidding me ... this
dog is ready to go and the site of a squirell he
is gone loose leash, tight leash, no leash.
He can see them clear as far as 5 blocks,
in fact when a leaf blows he is ready to bounce.

He sees a empty water bottle, or a sprinkle head
on the grass as approaching he is tensing up
because it just may be rocky the squirell.
I think the e collar is appropiate here?
Although I never used one on him.

Won't make any difference.

I've been using an e-collar with my JRT, and it's
worked wonders for his recall. But the one time
he bolted after something small and furry, he paid
no attention to the collar until after he'd brought
it to bay.

Jeff Dege.

-------------------------

Oh, bye the bye, diddler worked IN PERSON
with Max and buzzsaw with her SHOCK and
pronged spiked pinch choke collars and STILL
COULDN'T TRAIN IT not to chase critters no
doGdameneD better than you could your own dog:

Jeff Dege said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

So my dog is going to decide that sitting beside me is
more interesting than chasing the squirrel across the
street because he _trusts_ me?

In a convoluted way, and in part, Lucy is right. As
Mary wrote, dogs put up with our human idiosyncrasies
because we've built up a bond of trust. And *not*
chasing a squirrel is certainly a strange thing from
a dog's POV.

Lucy, though, thinks that every dog is a dog, and that
my Aussie will react to a squirrel the same way a hound
or a Huskie will.

In my house, "trust" with a prey-motivated dog involves
a leash.

Near is a Jack Russell. And I trust that when he's
in prey-drive, he'll not even hear me call him.

------------------------------

SEE? SEE?? SEE???

BWEEEAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

You can TRAIN ANY dog not to chase critters IN WON DAY.

LIKE THIS:

Subject: Chasing squirrels

From: lindalee
Date: Sat, Jan 21 2006
Email: "lindalee"

I have not posted to the group for awhile but want to
share my success of teaching my dog Sunshine, who
has a very high prey drive, to not go after squirrels when
on a walk.

It took a few trials but he can now walk right
past squirrels running up a tree or in a yard.

Using Jerry Howe's approach I used a sound to get his
attention when he saw a squirrel and then praised him
and kept on walking past the squirrel.

Where we live in Michigan we lots of squirrels and
he was always wanting to chase them up a tree.

Jerry's approach of sound and praise really works.

I think the people who discount his methods have never
tried the method because it works everytine.

Sometimes it takes a little practice to get the sound
from different directions but I was able to change
Sunshine's behavior in just a week after we moved
back to Michigan.

Sunshine is a very sensitive dog so any physical
corrections just won't work but using sound and
praise he is a really great dog who opens doors,
picks up things I drop, and and helps me a lot.

If you have a behavior problem with your dog get a
copy of Jerrry's manual and solve your problem!

------------------------

AND LIKE THIS:

Date: 5/22/03 11:24:35 PM Eastern
Daylight Time
From:
To:

Well, let me tell you, your Wits' End
Dog Training Method works.

My dog, Dasie, Loves to chase chameleons
around the barbecue on the patio. I
used this system on four different occasions.

When she went out today, she looked
everywhere else but the barbecue.
Amazing, just amazing.

I will write to Amanda about the video.

I am really excited to learn more, and
understand. Maybe just a little reassurance
that I am going about it the right way.

Thanks again
Paul

---------------------

AND LIKE THIS:

Hi, Jerry.

I'm not sure that I'm a 100% convert, or that I agree
with (or even understand) 100% of what you say in this
manual ... BUT ... we had "come" down pat in a few
reps and you could have knocked me down when I tried
the exercise with "drop" and, after a few reps in
different spots Darwin practically *threw* the rubber
ball at my feet on command. He's still not perfect
(just a pup, after all, and he's stubborn enough to
want to push and test me a little bit more).

For what it's worth, I can see (as no doubt you have)
how your usenet manner is likely to rankle a few
folks, but that woman who advocates ear pulling and
beating with sticks deserves everything she gets. Even
if that was the only method that would work, I'd live
with my dog not fetching rather than do any of that.
(Darwin fetches enthusiastically and instinctively,
tho').

Best, ben

---------------------

AND LIKE THIS:

"Nevyn" wrote in message

HOWEDY Group,

Here some SUCCESS STORIES I've had
using JERRY'S MANUAL

1) My dogz, two bitches - Vicious, barking, aggressive,
pulled on leash, wanted to kill any dogs they saw,
fought between each other. TWO WEEKS using Jerry's
manual, they were calm, friends, my companions.

2) ADDED A BEAGLE PUPPY (male) to my "PACK",
the girls had -NO PROBLEMS- with him from the
moment I dropped him by their noses.

3) My FRIENDS dogs 2 MALES barking and jumping
at the fence all night 3 DAYS TRAINING WITH JERRY'S
MANUAL they were CALMED AND HAVEN'T BARKED ONCE!

Added a NEW MALE DOG (2 yrs old) AND
WELCOMED HIM WITH NO WUCKAS !

4) POODLE that ATE food from the KITCHEN BENCH -
lock him in a box? NO! USE JERRYS MANUAL! 4 DAYS
AND HES NEVER DONE IT SINCE!

5) ABUSED DOGS AT THE SHELTER I WORK AT -
HAD TO BE FED WITH A BUCKET ON A STICK -
ONE WEEK ON JERRYS MANUAL, THE SUPERVISOR
TOLD ME TO PUT THEM IN THE PUBLIC KENNELS
FOR SALE !

Quite amazing to - I thought they were just
dull coloured dogs, but after I had removed
the fear and anxiety their hairs coloured up
amazingly.

6) STAFFY FEMALE who would NOT DROP HER
BALL! She carried it around all day and night - 3
DAYS on jerrys MANUAL and she now DROPS
it when u ASK her to!

BWHWHAHAHAHAAHA !!!!

Nevyn

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Violence Is A Learned Behavior