Hi,

I am seriously considering getting a Kuvasz. My only concern is that I
have heard that an owner of a Kuvasz has to make a strong
conscientious effort to train the Kuvasz's guard instinct. Constant
socialization throughout their life span (which I suppose any owner
should do anyhow, regardless of the breed), along with obedience
training is what I have heard is recommended.

I've had large dogs before, and I had no trouble training them and
being in charge of them. OTOH, I've also heard that the Kuvasz's
temperament is qualitatively different than that of a say, a German
Shepherd. As is true with any serious guard dog, I would like to think
that some of this is hype, and a lot of it is dependent on the owner
(such an owner who is inexperienced, not good at handling dogs, buys a
dog for the wrong reason, neglects the dog, or purposefully mistreats
the dog to make him mean).

However, I am curious if anyone who has actually owned a Kuvasz could
weigh in and give their opinion as to how much of a problem they had
in making sure their dog's guard instinct was in check. Was it a
problem? What did you do? How confident did you feel with the dog?

Thanks,

Matt Brenneman

In article
,
junoexpress wrote:


However, I am curious if anyone who has actually owned a Kuvasz could
weigh in and give their opinion as to how much of a problem they had
in making sure their dog's guard instinct was in check. Was it a
problem? What did you do? How confident did you feel with the dog?

Thanks,

I have not owned one. I have had one as a client who I saw virtually
every day in a dog park, and who boarded with me in my home. I felt
confident in my ability to handle the dog (moreso than the owners, IMO).
Given my lifestyle, particularly at that time (city rowhouse living),
it's not a breed I would choose to own.

The breed, like other livestock guardians, tends to do well when left
alone while owners work, but overprotectiveness in many environments, is
common.

What qualities have led you to the breed?

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

"junoexpress" wrote in message:

I am seriously considering getting a Kuvasz.

Why do you think that a Kuvasz is a good fit for your lifestyle and
circumstances?

I've had large dogs before, and I had no trouble training them and
being in charge of them. OTOH, I've also heard that the Kuvasz's
temperament is qualitatively different than that of a say, a German
Shepherd.

Absolutely. There is a substantial difference between a intelligent dog
with well developed protective instincts that is bred to work with their
handlers and a similar dog that is bred to make their decisions
independently of their owners.

As is true with any serious guard dog, I would like to think
that some of this is hype, and a lot of it is dependent on the owner

Not exactly. They are a working breed dog with well preserved and strong
protective streak and independent to boot, and unless you've got livestock
to guard, I'm not sure this is a breed suited for most living situations.

You may want to consider spending some time around some of these dogs, and I
don't mean just attending shows and such. See if you can find farms or
ranches or something that uses them for what they're bred for, and see how
you like their behavior. There may be traits beyond the guarding instinct
that you will find intolerable. For instance, LGDs tend to be highly active
at night, tend to have low thresholds for barking, and their voice carries a
good, long way. While you may not have any problems with it, your neighbors
might.

Suja

"junoexpress" wrote in message
news:34106117-4eba-48e1-9443- However, I am curious if anyone who has
actually owned a Kuvasz could
weigh in and give their opinion as to how much of a problem they had
in making sure their dog's guard instinct was in check. Was it a
problem? What did you do? How confident did you feel with the dog?

I love the breed. I would not own one.

I taught puppy agility at our local club and had a whole litter of kuvasz
come through. They were all fabulous as puppies. As they grew some became
more protective. One - who was my favorite as a puppy - became so
protective that she was put down. I will tell you that I was horrified
because I DID feel confident with this dog - of course, its possible she was
just a genetic freaky dog with issues but it turned me off to the breed
forever.

On Nov 20, 7:51 pm, "Suja" wrote:
"junoexpress" wrote in message:
I am seriously considering getting a Kuvasz.

Why do you think that a Kuvasz is a good fit for your lifestyle and
circumstances?

First, thank you for the information. I'll respond to your question
and Janet's, which was somewhat similar to yours.

The reason I have ambivalent feelings about Kuvasz is because of why I
want a Kuvasz in the first place. They are beautiful dogs, but I could
get a Great Pyrenees or a Samoyed, if I wanted a big white fluffy dog.
For the most part, however, I want a protection dog. Moreover, and
this is a big factor, I want a protection dog who can act
independently. I also like the idea that (from what I have heard),
they do not let people into your house, even if they've been in your
house before. To me, this is almost the definition of a good
protection dog.

I live in a small rural country town and I am a research
mathematician, so I don't tend to have large house parties with lots
of people ;). Thus, for the most part, I don't have to worry about
how my dog interacts with a wide variety of other people, because
there's not a lot of people around where I am, and I have a small
circle of friends. OTOH, when I do take the dog out where there are
people, I want to be in control of the dog. I want to be able to walk
the dog on a city street without fear that it will injure a small
child that might cross our path. But then again, on the *other* other
hand, if I am walking and accosted by someone who does mean me harm,
then I'd want the guard dog to kick in independently.

So, you see, that's my dilemma: I want a protection dog that is
independent (i.e it will take action if it has to without being told),
while at the same time, I want the dog to be obedient to me so I am
able to be able to control the dog. And this is where I am told the
socialization makes the difference: it basically teaches the dog what
is not threatening. I have been told that a Kuvasz that is taught to
socialize with small children, for example, will let a small child
stand on its tail without complaint. It learns that a jogger running
past is not a threat, etc. And I don't have a problem with taking the
time and making the effort to take the dog everyday to a park in the
nearby city so it can socialize with other people and dogs.

Anyhow, if you have any further thoughts on the matter, I would
appreciate your feedback. I think your question as to my motivation in
wanting to own one is a very important one, and one which I have tried
to evaluate myself. I think the two questions any dog owner should be
able to answer before getting a certain breed is: is this breed of dog
suited to my lifestyle and secondly, what are my expectations of this
dog. Many dogs could be spared a bad home if more owners thought about
such things. And the lifestyle issue leads me to raise one final
point, which is that if anyone who has a Kuvasz that does not herd,
wants to weigh in, I would appreciate that also.

Matt

We know folks who now have two Kuvasz. They neglected socializing the
first and the dog only accepts three people in the world. He has to be
sedated before he can visit a vet. His owners are experienced dog
people. This dog is a mess. I can't say whether he would have been a
mess anyway, but his owners failed to work with him every day and they
failed him in his socialization.

Wow, that's a pretty messed up and sad situation.

What I hear you and (also Beth in Alaska) saying is that the Kuvasz's
natural protection instinct is so high, that without constant
socialization throughout their lives, there is a good probability they
will be overly protective (or what I would call dangerous). With
socialization and a *job*, this can be managed.

And that is one of my other concerns, the fact that I don't have a
farm or livestock. I live in the country and have room for a dog
outdoors, but I wonder how much of their aggression is due to Kuvasz
that are not happy because they are not doing what they are supposed
to do. Maybe Kuvasz's *do* need a natural outlet for aggression/
protection, and guarding sheep is one place where they can do it
without hurting people. Maybe they are not meant to be around a lot of
people in the first place, and supposed to be by themselves a lot
outside.

Matt

"junoexpress" wrote in message:

For the most part, however, I want a protection dog.

If you really mean that (IOW, most people do not want a dog that will act as
anything more than a deterrent; a dog that is willing to use its teeth on
people is a *huge* liability), a well bred dog of a breed that can be
protection trained, such as Doberman, Rottweiler, or GSD would be a good
fit for you. There is *much* higher likelihood that you will have control
over the dog and its actions.

Moreover, and
this is a big factor, I want a protection dog who can act
independently.

Most well trained dogs of the traditional protection breeds have the innate
ability to make distinctions between threat and not a threat, and act with
the amount of necessary aggression. Even my Great Dane who is wonderful
with people in general is protective of me when circumstances warrant it.
It's not that I want her to bite anyone, but a large dog growling at you is
likely to stop a person in their tracks, and the person that it does not
stopped by it is more than likely willing to use deadly force and go through
the dog to get to the person.

I also like the idea that (from what I have heard),
they do not let people into your house, even if they've been in your
house before. To me, this is almost the definition of a good
protection dog.

There are many, many breeds of dogs that will do that. One of the down
sides to something like this is that several of these breeds have a very
small list of who is okay and who is not, and circumstances that don't
warrant it can trigger them to act aggressively. For instance, they may be
okay with their children, but other people's children are viewed with
suspicion, and play between kids can be perceived as a threat.

But then again, on the *other* other
hand, if I am walking and accosted by someone who does mean me harm,
then I'd want the guard dog to kick in independently.

This is what protective breeds of dogs do. You don't need to get a LGD for
that.

And this is where I am told the
socialization makes the difference: it basically teaches the dog what
is not threatening.

Absolutely. However, some breeds are more suspicious than others, and you
will have to work that much harder to get around it.

I have been told that a Kuvasz that is taught to
socialize with small children, for example, will let a small child
stand on its tail without complaint.

Well... they may let *their* small child do that, but more than likely, that
courtesy will not extend to children at large.

And I don't have a problem with taking the
time and making the effort to take the dog everyday to a park in the
nearby city so it can socialize with other people and dogs.

Also keep in mind that they tend to be dominant with other dogs and
aggressive towards dogs that are not their pack mates.

I think your question as to my motivation in
wanting to own one is a very important one, and one which I have tried
to evaluate myself.

I am really glad you're thinking this through. While a great deal of
thought needs to go into getting any dog, that goes double for anyone
thinking of getting a dog that is has the potential to bite/cause serious
harm to others.

And the lifestyle issue leads me to raise one final
point, which is that if anyone who has a Kuvasz that does not herd,
wants to weigh in, I would appreciate that also.

That would be the million dollar question. My general impression is that
these dogs prefer being left alone to do their job for the most part, and I
have not a clue what they do when that outlet is not available. They are
smart dogs (they have to be, to do what they do), so maybe more
structured/formal activities can take their place. Perhaps you can do
extensive obedience training and other more traditional training tracks
(flyball, agility, tracking) to keep them engaged. Just keep in mind that
giant breed dogs mature very slowly, and you want to keep them growing
slowly to head off potential bone growth abnormalities, such as HOD and OCD.
That generally means feeding a good quality food that is lower in protein
(large breed puppy formulas or puppy formulas in general are a bad idea;
Eagle Pack is the only one that makes a giant breed puppy formula that is
appropriate for such dogs), lots of free exercise, but not too much forced
exercise (puppy play, running around, etc. is fine, walking/running/jogging
for miles on a leash is not), limited high impact activity (jumping, going
up and down stairs), etc.

You may want to start attending some shows and talk to breeders about
whether your lifestyle is likely a good fit for the breed.

Suja

montana wildhack wrote in
news:2007112108593816807-montana@wildhackcominvalid:

The best protection dogs we have had were mutts - one was a Lab mix and
the other a GSD mix.

I would be remiss if I didn't point out in this thread that a big black
dog, whether protective or not, is a great deterrent. If she barks on
command, even better.

And it's my medium-sized black dog who is the most protective of me. She
definitely seems fierce when she takes issue with someone.

A mob of black dogs would theoretically be better, but if one of them is
a prancing Pomeranian, the effect is negated somewhat.


--
Catherine
& Zoe, Queenie, & Max, 3 black dogs of varying sizes
& Rosalie the calico cat
www.ourladyofperfection.blogspot.com

On Nov 21, 8:59 am, montana wildhack
wrote:
On 2007-11-21 01:35:50 -0500, junoexpress said:



What I hear you and (also Beth in Alaska) saying is that the Kuvasz's
natural protection instinct is so high, that without constant
socialization throughout their lives, there is a good probability they
will be overly protective (or what I would call dangerous). With
socialization and a *job*, this can be managed.

Saying it and doing it are two very different things. The Kuvasz of our
acquaintance is a danger to humans and animals. He is hyper aggressive.
Again, he is owned by very experienced dog people who live rurally. He
is not their only dog.

Maybe they are not meant to be around a lot of
people in the first place, and supposed to be by themselves a lot
outside.

I think you are misinterpreting the information and romanticizing the
idea of a protection dog. You do not want a dog that will attack any
living thing it sees. Not socializing, not training and not making the
dog a member of the family will ruin the dog and put you and others at
risk.

For the purposes you describe, I would not choose a Kuvasz. From your
explanation of a protection dog, I would strongly suggest that you find
Shutzhund near you and spend time understanding what that is all about,
then making your decision from there.

The best protection dogs we have had were mutts - one was a Lab mix and
the other a GSD mix. They could intimidate people without being
dangerous and were very friendly dogs. We have two dogs now that serve
as protectors - one is a warning dog and the other is not interested in
having anyone we don't invite around the house. Both are sweet fluffy
dogs that know the difference between friends and strangers.

If you think you need a dangerous dog to protect yourself, you're
probably better off buying a gun. Anyone who wouldn't be warned off by
a regular, run-of-the-mill protective dog may have one, too. At least
you can control a gun.

A lot of what happens with a dog is owner-dependent in my opinion.
However, dog temperament is always a variable. When you add that to an
equation where you already have a breed that has a very strong
instinctive predisposition to guard, it seems to me that getting a
Kuvasz for what I want probably is an unnecessary gamble. It seems to
me that you are right: there are a number of other dogs that could do
what I want (in terms of protection), but are more easily trained and
more easily controlled. Most of what a guard dog is *is* visual
intimidation: a silent Doberman just watching someone is usually
enough to deter anyone from getting any closer to find out the dog's
intentions. In the end, it sounds like a Kuvasz is a working dog and
it's really made for a very specific guarding purpose.
I'm pretty good with dogs, and normally I might just write off what
you said. However, what I find as I do more research on the Kuvasz is
that the *majority* of owner stories are very similar to the one you
describe. I've yet to come across an example yet of someone who
said,"Yeah, we just picked him up, he runs around in the backyard,
never had to do that much with him and he's fine." Not one. They are
more along the lines of people having to go to great limits to control
these dogs. And in my mind, when you have a dog that you do not have
control of that's not protection.

Thank you again for your advice,

Matt

montana wildhack wrote in
news:2007112120272016807-montana@wildhackcominvalid:

On 2007-11-21 19:31:59 -0500, junoexpress
said:

when you have a dog that you do not have
control of that's not protection.

That was the point I was attempting to communicate.

Control would be the issue. The OP stated that he wanted the dog in
question to be protective *and* to act independently. What he has
described is a dog that is *not* under control, and that strikes me
as a spectacularly bad idea.

I don't know what the OP's actual needs are, but if he truly needs a
protection dog, I would suggest looking for a dog with a good, stable
temperament that is well socialized people, and to work with a good
trainer who is skilled in protection work.
--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)