Over on agiledogs we've been discussing a lot of agility safety issues
over the past few days. For the most part it's been a really great
discussion, with some of the top agility people piping in.

One of the areas addressed has been weave poles. USDAA allows weave
poles to be as tightly spaced as 18" apart. AKC allows 20" to 24" with
22" preferred. In Europe, poles are 24" in spacing. And some of us are
advocating strongly for 24" spacing for all venues here in the U.S. as well.

I've finally been able to get Cala's 60-weave run from the Purina ICD on
YouTube. If you look at her spine, you can see why I chose not to go
back the next year and defend her title.

Cala is a 24", 62# dog and these weaves were 22" spacing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUnZVvY2Za8

"Robin Nuttall" wrote:


I've finally been able to get Cala's 60-weave run from the Purina ICD on
YouTube.

It's an awesome run... although I'd seen it before, it was cool to see it
again.

If you look at her spine, you can see why I chose not to go back the next
year and defend her title.

Yep. And those are bendy weaves, which actually require slightly less
bending on the part of the dog than the more solid ones I usually see in
competition.
I was also, btw looking at the amount of torque she was putting on her
shoulders, and the impact on the forelegs; that, rather than the spinal
flexion, is why Bren had to stop doing weaves at around age 10 - he didn't
get quite as low or as far out, but he DID drive off of the forelegs.
I remain baffled at those who think weaves can't stress a dog's body.....
although I do think they're the hardest on large, drivey dogs like Bren and
Cala.

I worry about it far less with Morag, as she's got an extra-bendy spine, is
extremely narrow, AND runs weaves more like a small dog than one in the 20+
division.

sionnach wrote:
"Robin Nuttall" wrote:


I've finally been able to get Cala's 60-weave run from the Purina ICD on
YouTube.


It's an awesome run... although I'd seen it before, it was cool to see it
again.


If you look at her spine, you can see why I chose not to go back the next
year and defend her title.


Yep. And those are bendy weaves, which actually require slightly less
bending on the part of the dog than the more solid ones I usually see in
competition.

The bases were a bit thin. The weaves were fixed, but the whole set flexed.

I was also, btw looking at the amount of torque she was putting on her
shoulders, and the impact on the forelegs; that, rather than the spinal
flexion, is why Bren had to stop doing weaves at around age 10 - he didn't
get quite as low or as far out, but he DID drive off of the forelegs.

It's such an unnatural thing for a dog's front to do. The foreleg pushes
straight away from the body with force.

I remain baffled at those who think weaves can't stress a dog's body.....
although I do think they're the hardest on large, drivey dogs like Bren and
Cala.

Exactly. One of the things we're talking about is that if all weaves
were set at 24" it would really help, because it would mean fewer dogs
would single-track as Cala is doing. Some of the people were saying that
gee, if 18" was the minimum and 24" the maximum, than about 21" was just
fine and we should stick with that. Others seemed to get the impression
it was only a problem for "giant" dogs and therefore, since giant dogs
aren't that many and aren't that competitive, it should be dismissed. I
put it out there precisely because Cala is not a giant dog--she's
representative of a lot of dogs in the 24" class.

I worry about it far less with Morag, as she's got an extra-bendy spine, is
extremely narrow, AND runs weaves more like a small dog than one in the 20+
division.

A lot of BCs tend to swim the weaves but they're so narrow and bendy it
seems not to impact them much.

Robin Nuttall said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

I've finally been able to get Cala's 60-weave run from the
Purina ICD on YouTube. If you look at her spine, you can
see why I chose not to go back the next year and defend her
title.

I can see that, and she was still pretty damn impressive. I
passed that video on a while ago.

Next time you talk to Kathy K, ask her about Yikes (Malinois)
and his weaves. They're *too* awesome, and I emphasise the
*too* because that dog is crazy.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Robin Nuttall"" wrote:

Exactly. One of the things we're talking about is that if all weaves were
set at 24" it would really help,

I do wonder, however, how that would work for small dogs; for example, for
Rocsi that would have been 10" more than her body length.

A lot of BCs tend to swim the weaves but they're so narrow and bendy it
seems not to impact them much.

Morag, despite being 20.5" tall, actually hops - doublefoots, that is - the
weaves when she's up in drive, while at the same time driving with her head
low. Did you, by any chance, take a look at the videos I posted? You can see
it somewhat in the Weavers run, but her weave style's actually clearest in
the Regular run.

sionnach wrote:
"Robin Nuttall"" wrote:


Exactly. One of the things we're talking about is that if all weaves were
set at 24" it would really help,


I do wonder, however, how that would work for small dogs; for example, for
Rocsi that would have been 10" more than her body length.

Some of the top handlers, including Robin Kletke with Tigger, have said
that it takes some retraining but that their little dogs got used to it.
Tigger (a very tiny Pap) was retrained in anticipation of 24" weaves at
Worlds. Several small-dog handlers said that their dogs are actually
faster in 24" spacing than in narrower spacing, they just push forward
harder.


A lot of BCs tend to swim the weaves but they're so narrow and bendy it
seems not to impact them much.


Morag, despite being 20.5" tall, actually hops - doublefoots, that is - the
weaves when she's up in drive, while at the same time driving with her head
low. Did you, by any chance, take a look at the videos I posted? You can see
it somewhat in the Weavers run, but her weave style's actually clearest in
the Regular run.

Two-foot hopping is one of the safer ways to do weaves. A lot of BCs
don't exactly hop, but mostly use one leg while lightly placing the
other leg beside it. Sort of hard to describe--not a boing-boing back
and forth but a more fluid push with both front feet.

"Robin Nuttall" wrote:

Some of the top handlers, including Robin Kletke with Tigger, have said
that it takes some retraining but that their little dogs got used to it.
Tigger (a very tiny Pap) was retrained in anticipation of 24" weaves at
Worlds. Several small-dog handlers said that their dogs are actually
faster in 24" spacing than in narrower spacing, they just push forward
harder.

Sounds interesting.


Two-foot hopping is one of the safer ways to do weaves. A lot of BCs don't
exactly hop, but mostly use one leg while lightly placing the other leg
beside it. Sort of hard to describe--not a boing-boing back and forth but
a more fluid push with both front feet.

Hm. That may be what Mw does.

sionnach wrote:
"Robin Nuttall" wrote:


Some of the top handlers, including Robin Kletke with Tigger, have said
that it takes some retraining but that their little dogs got used to it.
Tigger (a very tiny Pap) was retrained in anticipation of 24" weaves at
Worlds. Several small-dog handlers said that their dogs are actually
faster in 24" spacing than in narrower spacing, they just push forward
harder.


Sounds interesting.



Two-foot hopping is one of the safer ways to do weaves. A lot of BCs don't
exactly hop, but mostly use one leg while lightly placing the other leg
beside it. Sort of hard to describe--not a boing-boing back and forth but
a more fluid push with both front feet.


Hm. That may be what Mw does.


I just noticed this within the last year or so when I was watching some
slow-mo weaves. I'd think this too would be far safer than
single-stepping. But I also don't think we can dictate to our dogs which
style they use. They sort of need to find the style that works best for
them.

"Robin Nuttall" wrote:

I just noticed this within the last year or so when I was watching some
slow-mo weaves. I'd think this too would be far safer than
single-stepping.

Even watched at regular speed, Morag's weave style doesn't look, to me,
like it puts undue impact on her body.

But I also don't think we can dictate to our dogs which style they use.
They sort of need to find the style that works best for them.

I agree. I've seen discussions in the past about trying to train dogs to
double-step instead of single-step, and vice versa, but IMO it's futile in
most cases. Among other things, I think a dog's chosen weave style is
largely dictated by conformation; I don't think Bren or Cala COULD run
weaves the way Morag does - she's able to do it because she's very narrow
and very flexible.

sionnach wrote:
I think a dog's chosen weave style is
largely dictated by conformation; I don't think Bren or Cala COULD run
weaves the way Morag does - she's able to do it because she's very narrow
and very flexible.


Exactly. IMO if we try to artificially change our dogs' weaving style,
we may end up causing more physical harm, not less.