Janet Boss wrote:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/96658169@N00/2140412427/

Okay, I used to sleep in that very same spot when I was little.
Also under the seat cushions. And between the mattress and the box
spring of my bed. Obviously, both Marcie and I were being tortured!

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

In article ,
Shelly wrote:

Obviously, both Marcie and I were being tortured!

I also torture my cat Skipjack....

Locking him in that cage is just pure evil!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9665816...n/photostream/

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

Janet Boss wrote:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9665816...n/photostream/

I'd say that you had a very close call with the Laser Eyes of Dqqm.
Or maybe Skipjack was just firing a warning shot? Be careful,
because he knows where you sleep and he *will* get his revenge!

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

In article ,
Shelly wrote:


I'd say that you had a very close call with the Laser Eyes of Dqqm.
Or maybe Skipjack was just firing a warning shot? Be careful,
because he knows where you sleep and he *will* get his revenge!

I sleep with one eye open!

He's in there again now. Marcie stuck her head in there, barked at him
and took her little pink camo mat out. "You can stay in there, but you
won't be as comfortable dammit!"

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

wrote:
Humans have abused dogs by breeding them... are we not now
responsible for taking care of the results of this endeavor?

I don't understand what you mean by humans "breeding" them being
abusive. Please clarify this one for me.

?? Humans 'breed' dogs by deciding which dogs get to mate
(either by pairing when in heat or now, artificial insemination).
They select dogs with 'desirable' characteristics (like size,
color, coat length, prey drive, etc etc) and mate them in order
to get offspring with similar characteristics. In doing so, they
also select for linked traits that are harmful to the dogs,
such as hip dysplasia and deafness.

Dogs can reproduce without
humans, like any other species. And like any other species, they do
not need us to manage them -- no we are not "responsible" for them.

It's not a matter of what dogs (and other domesticated animals)
'need,' it's a matter of what humans have done to control their
breeding, and hence their inherited characteristics. It's
eugenics, applied to nonhuman animals.

Do you mean to say, you lock up your dogs in your house? It's
just a bigger cage, you know. Do you have a fenced yard that you
use to contain your dog? Why? Why not allow your dogs the
ultimate freedom of being able to come and go whenever and
wherever they please? Who are you to decide what their movements
should be?

As I said, in this world, we are forced to do things that we wouldn't
normally do, because of the actions of evil people. If I could let my
dogs outside on their own, I would -- but if I did so, they would be
picked up by animal control, locked in a cage, and possibly put to
death.

Or be run over by a car, or be eaten by a bear, or be impregnated
by another unneutered roaming dog, or get in a fight over a
female who is in heat...

They've never had someone mistreat them, so they would probably
walk right up to the animal control people and give them kisses, not
knowing that the person was going to imprison and kill them.

The house is a bigger cage, yes, but it's the best I can do. Like I
said in my last two posts -- you have to do some things that aren't
right in this world to survive, but that doesn't justify doing the
worst things. The house I suppose, could be called a "bigger cage",
but that doesn't mean that I should allow them to be put into a
smaller cage by "humane" societies or animal control. At least they've
got a loving environment and get to eat fresh cooked meat for every
meal -- that's a step ahead of sleeping in their own filth, eating
kibble, and living in a steel cage, wouldn't you say?

The currently caged dogs, whom you advocate freeing, would not,
upon attaining their freedom, step right into a loving
environment and get to eat fresh-cooked meat for every meal.
They would be raiding garbage cans, trying to find warm shelter,
fighting over scraps, and the little ones and genetically damaged
ones would be dying, rather quickly, I expect.

You don't
have to play god. Nature's already got it covered.
But dogs are dogs because humans made them so. We have been
playing god with dogs for a few thousand years. Many of the
survival instincts that wild canids have are no longer present,
have been modified in dogs, in order to satisfy the needs and
wants of humans.


I've seen several packs of feral dogs. I've come across deer carcasses
killed by them in the woods as well. They definitely have a survival
instinct that works just fine for them. The "they can't survive
without us" bit is also something you should question to see if it is
actually reality or just something that these animal control groups
tell people without any basis.

Do you really think that a "feral chihuahua" (now there's an
oxymoron!) could survive in the wild, without the support of humans?

FurPaw

--
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched,
every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense
a theft from those who hunger and are not fed,
those who are cold and are not clothed."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

To reply, unleash the dogs.

wrote:
On Dec 24, 8:17 pm, FurPaw wrote:
wrote:
I never said dogs were apes. All I was implying is that the myth
that "humans are the only creatures that can think and feel" is
completely false.
Chimpanzees can think and feel. Humans are not unique in being the
only creatures on the planet with a rational mind. Dogs cannot
express their thoughts and feelings in American Sign Language
because they don't have hands to sign with. This does not mean that
they don't feel or think. I am not saying a dog is anything other
than a dog -- but I am saying that they have feelings. They do
communicate, but not in English or sign language. You just have to
care enough to make an effort to understand their language, instead
of being so arrogant that just because you don't understand when
they talk to you, you just assume they are meat robots.

In this discussion you have raised some interesting ethical
questions, which at base flow from the question: do humans have
a right to impose their will on other animals (including dogs)?

It's a pervasive belief that we do, and in Western Culture it
mostly stems from Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our image,
after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of
the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and
over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth
upon the earth." And this leads to what is often an unconscious
assumption that humans have the right and/or duty to make
decisions for other animals.

If you opt out of this justification, as your posts regarding
sterilization of male dogs and euthanization of stray dogs seem
to suggest that you do, do you also:

(1) refrain from eating meat, or at least refrain from eating
meat that you obtained that was farmed for the purpose of human
consumption (as opposed to obtained through hunting and killing
or scavenging the remains)?

(2) refrain from wearing clothing made from dead or living
animals (e.g., leather or wool)?

(3) refrain from fouling the environment that you share with
other animals, e.g., refrain from polluting it with burned fossil
fuel or industrial waste? And do you refrain from purchasing or
using products whose manufacture creates pollution?

(4) refrain from experimenting on other animals for the purpose
of doing research of any sort - whether production of cosmetics
or human-life-saving drugs or just basic science? And do you
refrain from using products or drugs or medical procedures that
were developed using animals as research subjects?

These are ethically tough questions, but ones you need to answer
affirmatively if you want to maintain a pure attitude of respect
for your fellow (non-human) animals. And it takes some
significant mental gyrations to justify 'using' animals in some
circumstances but not others.

FurPaw

--
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched,
every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense
a theft from those who hunger and are not fed,
those who are cold and are not clothed."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

To reply, unleash the dogs.

FurPaw, you asked some very reasonable questions. I appreciate you
acting mature and sensible about all of this. I will answer them one
by one

1) I do not buy meat for myself. I will eat meat if someone is eating
a meal with meat in it, and they invite me to eat with them (depending
on the meat -- I still won't eat fast food and crap like that ever).
But that doesn't happen much, so I generally eat meat a few times a
year, and only when someone else has already purchased it anyway.

I do, however, buy meat for my dogs -- they never eat kibble (yuck).
I do not agree with the way that it is produced, but at this point, I
do not have a choice. On the one hand, I could go hunting on someone
else's land for deer -- in which case I would either get shot or
arrested, neither of which is an option for me right now. On the other
hand, I could let my dogs go (the puppy would have to wait until I
felt he was old enough to handle himself, though), so that they could
hunt for their own food -- the problem with this is that within a day
or two, they would be "rescued" by some animal control group, locked
in a cage, and murdered. They don't have a healthy suspicion of people
yet, like a feral dog would. I love them too much to see them get
"humanely" slaughtered.

Like many things in this society, we are often forced to do things we
don't like. There are many evil people out there, and if I knew my
dogs wouldn't fall prey to them, then I would let them go and hunt for
their own meat, and if the rich didn't own all of the land, I would go
hunting. But those are two big ifs, and for now I am forced to feed
them the only way I can, which is to buy meat at a store.

2) All of my clothes are cotton, with the exception of a pair of wool
socks. But I buy all of my clothes from thrift stores, so even if I
did buy leather I would not be supporting a leather corporation, just
whatever charity runs the thrift store.

3) Yes, I do refrain from fouling the environment as much as I can.
But I definitely play a part in fouling the environment, just like
everyone else who buys anything from a store.

Once again, in this society, we are often forced to do things we
wouldn't do if we had a choice. But I do my best not to buy anything
that is not a necessity, and always buy things used, so that the
corporations that manufacture them do not see an economic benefit. I
truly wish that I could go and live in the woods and live off of
edible plants and hunting. But this is illegal (if everyone could
legally do that, it would be awfully hard to keep them in factorys and
retail stores wouldn't it), and I have to eat.

4) I don't do or support any of this. I don't use chemicals on myself
-- the chemical I do use is an all-natural soap that is not tested on
animals. I don't use cleaning chemicals, deoderants or any of that
crap. I've got enough toxic waste spread around without applying to
myself and my house.



The fact that everyone does bad things (i.e. supporting corporate
destruction and environmental degradation) does not justify doing bad
things, however. It especially does not justify doing bad things that
are not NECESSARY TO SURVIVAL -- i.e. things such as rape or locking
dogs in cages and killing them. None of us are perfect in this
society, but we can be better by minimizing the amount of pain and
suffering we cause. Torturing dogs is not working towards that goal.


Oh sharon....
Take your obscure thoughts and shove them where the sun don't shine,
sweetie. Then call every rescue shelter in your 5 state area and
volunteer every hour of your time as a volunteer. You haven't seen
suffering until you have seen litterS of puppies and kittens every
day starved, neglected and medically ill to the point of near death.
Ever seen a litter of babies abandoned by the mother because she is,
herself, is starving to death? Your solution?

I wouldn't volunteer to work at a prison or a torture camp, and I
won't volunteer to work at a shelter -- I don't want to play a part in
your animal abuse. I haven't assumed anything about you. You don't
love them, or you wouldn't lock them in cages. You can try to justify
it however you want, but if I took any human you "love" and did what
those shelters do to the dogs and cats there, you would hate me for
it.

Yes I've see "starved", "neglected" puppies before. That's nature
"sweetie" and if you just let them die, then you could spare them the
cage, the knife, or the gas chamber. I don't see how killing and
locking them up relieves their suffering. I've seen plenty of starving
people too, should I lock them up and inject them with poison?

I've also seen plenty of dogs that are NOT starving, and are totally
fine living on their own. Of course, this is only in rural areas where
they are out of reach of "animal control" and got a chance to make it
to adulthood. Like I said, if people stopped meddling, nature would
balance it out. Just like nature is going to balance out the human
overpopulation problem in a few years.


You must be *some* saint.
I'm not calling myself a "saint". I'm just saying I don't torture
dogs. If that makes you feel like you need to lash out, then maybe you
need to think about why it's such a sensitive subject.


No! My dog is my baby!
But surely different from a human baby, who you would absolutely never
dream of doing it to right?

No I cant have kids!
Whats the difference between that and circumcision? or fixing you babbys
lazy eye or gromets or any number of non nescesary operations.
~shady angel~

Shelly wrote:
~shady angel~ wrote:
Shelly wrote:
"~shady angel~" wrote in
:

I dont know about the claims but i nuetered my boy at 1 year and
he's as healthy as a horse now at 3.
Is neutering children legal where you live?
No! My dog is my baby!

You might benefit from a basic biology course.

Haha! The difference is I didn't gain 10kg and ruin my waist to have him but
I've had him since he was 4 weeks old rescued from gang member. I dont want
kids I'm only 23 but I never wanted kids I have neices. Plus I cant have
them anyway!

~shady angel~