(Melinda Shore) wrote in news:fkp9mv$1bf$1
@panix3.panix.com:

there have always been complaints by Christians about the
commercialization of Christmas

And, in fact, before the mid-19th century, Christmas wasn't really
celebrated in the US, as it was too "Catholic."

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

In article ,
tiny dancer wrote:
If you are referring to me, and the *normal* I posted, had you bothered to
read the previous post, it was about people who don't much care that their
dog has been *missing* since yesterday.

She wasn't, but what you wrote really was a pretty good
example of your *ghastly* writing. If you can't figure out
how you went astray with asking "all you normal people" what
they're buying their dogs for Christmas, have one of your
grandkids explain it to you.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

(Melinda Shore) wrote :
I'm not sure where all this "Anybody who's not Christian can
kiss my ass" stuff comes from.

What makes it even funnier is the "Catholics are not Christians"
contingent.

As for "dog presents", well, they get three hots and a flop and, being
dogs, they're grateful to the point of ecstasy for that.

M Healey wrote in news:Xns9A10ADF7BE31Eanzyahoo@
130.133.1.4:

What makes it even funnier is the "Catholics are not Christians"
contingent.

Especially considering that, once upon a time, Christmas was not
celebrated by most Protestants, onna counta popery.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

Shelly wrote:
M Healey wrote in news:Xns9A10ADF7BE31Eanzyahoo@
130.133.1.4:

What makes it even funnier is the "Catholics are not Christians"
contingent.

Especially considering that, once upon a time, Christmas was not
celebrated by most Protestants, onna counta popery.

And here's an article that discussed a bit of the social history
of the celebration of Christmas in the US.

http://www.dailypress.com/news/local...,2910292.story

Celebration of Christmas was banned in colonial New England, and
later, throughout the US, "Through much of the 19th century,
schools and businesses remained open, Congress met in session and
some churches closed their doors, lest errant worshippers try to
furtively commemorate the day."

Only in the latter half of the 19th century did celebration of
Christmas (despite its pagan beginnings) became accepted and then
embraced by churches throughout the US. "Aspects of the holiday
like decorated trees and gift-giving became status symbols for an
aspirant middle class. When Christmas began its march toward
dominance among holidays, it was because of a change in the
culture, not theology."

Odd how we tend to think that 'how it is now is how it always was.'

FurPaw

--
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched,
every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense
a theft from those who hunger and are not fed,
those who are cold and are not clothed."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

To reply, unleash the dogs.

"Mark Shaw" wrote in message
...

This is not a good Christmas - my SO's and my last surviving
parent just died - but it's good to remember things like this.

I'm very sorry.

flick 100785

In article 2007122512495116807-montana@wildhackcominvalid,
montana wildhack wrote:
Charles Dickens was a rock star in America. He was huge!

One of my favorite bits of Dickensiana is this:
http://www.ric.edu/faculty/rpotter/cann.html, the upshot of
which is that when John Rae discovered what had become of
the lost Franklin expedition Dickens shot him down on the
basis that 1) Englishmen would never resort to cannibalism,
and 2) you can't believe the Inuit, anyway. He wrecked
Rae's reputation by crapping all over him in the popular
press even though Rae was a really remarkable guy, and was,
after all, correct (as were the Inuit from whom he learned
what happened).

Anyway, this morning the NY Times ran an op-ed piece on the
history of Santa, some of which I'd never heard before
(particularly about Black Peter).
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/25/op...5mcguckin.html
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

On 24 Dec 2007 16:52:31 -0500, (Melinda Shore) wrote:

In article ,
sighthounds & siberians wrote:
Christmas, to me, isn't about shopping,
decorating, or eating.

Something I don't understand is this: there have always been
complaints by Christians about the commercialization of
Christmas (although last year commentators on Fox News were
saying that Jesus would have wanted you to spend spend
spend, but they're from another planet).

They actually said that? Did they happen to mention how they knew
this?

There are even
complaints about it in "Miracle on 34th Street." So why
does it keep getting more and more commercial and more and
more expensive?

Because people who feel the way I do are in the minority? Because our
culture is more and more about what we havehavehave (parents seem
unable to say "no" to fabulously expensive and unnecessary gadgets for
their kids) and retailers exploit that? I dunno - why does a 10
year-old need a cell phone?

I don't blame you. I also wish that those people would actually read
the New Testament, and read to comprehend what's really there rather
than for backup of their preconceived political and/or quasi-religious
views. Anti-semitism, racisim, anti-anybodyism are anti-Christian
attitudes.

I've read it a bunch of times. Jesus didn't say anything
about homosexuality but he sure had quite a bit to say about
the rich.

Ayup. Were he here today, Jesus' political and social views would be
a whole lot closer to yours than to Pat Robertson's.

Mustang Sally

"sighthounds & siberians" wrote:

I dunno - why does a 10
year-old need a cell phone?

I'm in tune with much of what's being said here, and hopefully will have
time to actually contribute to the discussion tomorrow (way past bedtime at
the moment, I'm catching up after being away for 2 days g), but a side
comment on this:

Nowadays, many kids actually DO need cell phones, at least for limited
usage, because there are almost no public phones any more, and even some
private homes no longer have land lines.
For example, my S.O.'s twins - about to turn 15 - have cell phones so that
they can call to be picked up after school, from the library, after dances,
etc., for emergencies, etc., and to talk to their father during the week and
on the alternate weekends when he doesn't have visitation. The phones aren't
used for general conversation, though, and their schools have policies which
dictate that cell phones are turned off and left in lockers during the
school day.

"Terri" wrote:

"Somewhere around 1846 - 48, Queen Victoria's husband, Prince Albert, was
credited with bringing the first Christmas tree to Windsor Castle for the
Royal Family.

Christmas trees are a German tradition, and Albert was, after all, a
German prince.