I have two dogs. One older dog (12 1/2 y.o) one younger (3 1/2). Both are
male of comparable body size.
I've had the younger one longer and adopted the older one later (when he was
about 10 1/2). Erwin, the young one has always been #1 dog in the house.
Erwin is having issues that will more than likely be with him for a long
time to come (he has severe arthritis in his elbow, as well as a problem
with his right hind).

Anyways, I've noticed an increasing number of challenges to Erwin's
authority recently. No fights or anything, just less of an acceptance on
Dempsey's (the older dog) part that Erwin reigns supreme. Dempsey has
started doing things like hogging the water dish (its a two bowl affair),
and more recently I've observed him trying to mount Erwin (which is
something he never would have considered).

What (if anything) would you do? Who would you 'support' in the bid for
power? Who would you feed first (they both wait until my say so, but
Erwin's food as always been laid down first)? Would you discourage the old
dog from hogging the water dish, or would you encourage them to share. They
are very good friends, and there has never been a harsh word between them,
so I'm not concerned about a dog fight, I'm just not sure who I should
support (obviously in my position as 'pack leader' my support means a lot).

What do you think?

Dale

Dale Atkin wrote:
I have two dogs. One older dog (12 1/2 y.o) one younger (3 1/2). Both
are male of comparable body size. I've had the younger one longer
and adopted the older one later (when he was about 10 1/2). Erwin,
the young one has always been #1 dog in the house. Erwin is having
issues that will more than likely be with him for a long time to come
(he has severe arthritis in his elbow, as well as a problem with his
right hind).

Anyways, I've noticed an increasing number of challenges to Erwin's
authority recently. No fights or anything, just less of an acceptance
on Dempsey's (the older dog) part that Erwin reigns supreme. Dempsey
has started doing things like hogging the water dish (its a two bowl
affair), and more recently I've observed him trying to mount Erwin
(which is something he never would have considered).

What (if anything) would you do? Who would you 'support' in the bid
for power?

Neither. I would discourage pestering or provocative behavior from
either of them, especially any attempts at mounting (from either one)
given Erwin's arthritic elbow and hind leg issue.

Who would you feed first (they both wait until my say so, but
Erwin's food as always been laid down first)?

Do what you've always done.

Would you discourage the old dog from hogging the water dish, or
would you encourage them to share.

Neither. I'd put a second water dish in another room. And I might have
the vet do some bloodwork on the old dog to check kidney function and
blood sugar levels at his next office visit.

They are very good friends, and there has never been a harsh word
between them, so I'm not concerned about a dog fight, I'm just not
sure who I should support (obviously in my position as 'pack leader'
my support means a lot).

I think you're making too big of a deal about this. It's not a
presidential primary. You're the pack leader? So lead. You make the
rules and apply them to both dogs equally. No pestering. No
provocation. No humping. Don't sweat the little stuff. A second water
dish is easy enough to do. I hope you do give serious thought to asking
for some bloodwork to make sure there's nothing physical going on with
your senior.

In article pdblj.18470$yQ1.9791@edtnps89,
Dale Atkin wrote:
What (if anything) would you do? Who would you 'support' in the bid for
power? Who would you feed first (they both wait until my say so, but
Erwin's food as always been laid down first)? Would you discourage the old
dog from hogging the water dish, or would you encourage them to share. They
are very good friends, and there has never been a harsh word between them,
so I'm not concerned about a dog fight, I'm just not sure who I should
support (obviously in my position as 'pack leader' my support means a lot).

I tend to let the dogs decide among themselves. It's
irrelevant to who gets their bowl first, etc. - that's up to
you. Separate the water bowls.

I do know one person who feels she decides who's alpha among
the dogs and she enforces it, but she's also an unusually
good dog trainer.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

"Terri" wrote in message
...
"Dale Atkin" wrote in
newsdblj.18470$yQ1.9791@edtnps89:
[...]

What (if anything) would you do? Who would you 'support' in the bid for
power? Who would you feed first (they both wait until my say so, but
Erwin's food as always been laid down first)? Would you discourage the
old dog from hogging the water dish, or would you encourage them to
share. They are very good friends, and there has never been a harsh word
between them, so I'm not concerned about a dog fight, I'm just not
sure who I should support (obviously in my position as 'pack leader' my
support means a lot).

What do you think?


Man, that's a tough one for me. Dempsey is older and usually I indulge the
older ones as having earned the right to seniority but in this case, Erwin
was there first. What does Erwin do when Dempsey humps him?

So far, I don't think Erwin has actually noticed, as he hasn't been
successful. Mostly Dempsey makes his attempts when hes in with a large crowd
of other dogs. Hes certainly thinking about it, but he hasn't got up the
guts yet to give it a try. If Erwin's response to dogs other than Dempsey is
any indicator, he'd bark loudly in his face, at which point Dempsey would
likely come crying to me.

I read you said no fights so far but I am curious as to what Erwin does
when this happens.
Is he fairly unconcerned when Dempsey tries the usurping behavior?

Fairly... I think if I left it totally up to them, Dempsey would probably
reign supreme without too much of an objection from Erwin.

Dale

"Kathleen" wrote in message
news
What (if anything) would you do? Who would you 'support' in the bid for
power?

Neither. I would discourage pestering or provocative behavior from
either of them, especially any attempts at mounting (from either one)
given Erwin's arthritic elbow and hind leg issue.


Its hard not to 'take sides'. There are so many little issues that in their
eyes can easily be seen as positional. Who gets fed first? Who gets called
first? Who gets their collar on first? Who gets first choice of seats in the
car? How do you resolve the little issues, like one playing 'keep-away' with
the other's toy? Or any of the other myriad of 'passive' challenges that can
be made.

Who would you feed first (they both wait until my say so, but Erwin's
food as always been laid down first)?

Do what you've always done.

Would you discourage the old dog from hogging the water dish, or would
you encourage them to share.

Neither. I'd put a second water dish in another room. And I might have
the vet do some bloodwork on the old dog to check kidney function and
blood sugar levels at his next office visit.

Just an FYI, the old guy had some blood work run quite recently. Everyone
(myself included) was surprised at how good his blood work looked for a dog
of his age. Erwin actually seems content to wait for Dempsey to finish
drinking before he has his turn, which obviously *isn't* an alpha
characteristic. It didn't actually create any tension between them, but it
certainly looked like an invasion of Erwin's rights from my perspective.


They are very good friends, and there has never been a harsh word
between them, so I'm not concerned about a dog fight, I'm just not
sure who I should support (obviously in my position as 'pack leader'
my support means a lot).

I think you're making too big of a deal about this.

Probably right. In fact giving it more thought, its probably only a
transient situation anyways. Dempsey is trying to take what he can, when he
can. In many ways this doesn't worry Erwin overly much. I'm sure they'll
sort it out between them. Its interesting to watch in any case.

I hope you do give serious thought to asking
for some bloodwork to make sure there's nothing physical going on with
your senior.

Just for anyone who's just scanning the message. The senior had a 'full'
blood panel done quite recently (Late November, early December). All his
blood chemistries and CBC were well within the normal range (much more
normal than one might expect for a dog of his age).

Dale

"Dale Atkin" said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

What (if anything) would you do? Who would you 'support' in
the bid for power? Who would you feed first (they both wait
until my say so, but Erwin's food as always been laid down
first)?

I try to not get involved my dogs' politics. I've always fed my
dogs in the order I got them - the bowl is placed in front of
Rocky, Friday, then Maybe. They all get released at the same
time.

Would you discourage the old dog from hogging the
water dish, or would you encourage them to share.

I would discourage nothing as long as their relationship is not
snarky, then I would discourage the snarkiness but not
micromanage the relationship.

That's what I'd do with my dogs. Every dog is different and
some breeds required a heightened degree of management.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

In article ,
Rocky wrote:

I've always fed my
dogs in the order I got them - the bowl is placed in front of
Rocky, Friday, then Maybe. They all get released at the same
time.

Right now, it has been easiest to feed Marcie first (she's still eating
in her crate, but I need to move on), then the usual sit and wait
routine with the other 2 (bowls go down at same time, dogs get released
at same time). Treats are doled out in age order though, with Lucy
getting hers first. When Franklin died, Rudy seemed confused to be
getting his directly after Lucy got hers. He's adjusted though, and
the little pipsqueak waits patiently for hers.

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

In article ,
elegy wrote:
i have a hard time believing that those things really matter in the
grand scheme of things. who gets fed first? the dog who takes the
longest to eat. who gets called first? the dog i need first. who gets
collared first? the dog who sits nicely first. i reinforce good
manners far before i reinforce anything about power structure.

Yeah. I actually don't reinforce anything about "power
structure," myself. The dogs have to behave themselves and
they're not allowed to fight. They get fed in the order
their positions or crates are around the room. I'm not
going to ping-pong around the room putting feed bowls down
in the order I believe the dogs think their pack structure
is.

what matters most, imo, is that you provide strong leadership and
don't allow jerky behavior from anybody, regardless of their "status".

Yes! Exactly. I think Dale is worrying too much about
something that doesn't really matter.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

"Dale Atkin" wrote in message
newsdblj.18470$yQ1.9791@edtnps89...
snip
so I'm not concerned about a dog fight, I'm just not sure who I should
support (obviously in my position as 'pack leader' my support means a
lot).
=============
I guess the older dog sees the younger dog as becoming weaker and is taking
advantage of it by becoming bolder and more dominant. If they were my
dogs, I would feed them separately with their very own water and food
dishes. I would feed them at the same time.

In article ,
Terri wrote:
FWIW, whenever I've got a dog that is clearly top dog I follow
their lead by feeding top dog first and treats, etc. Doing otherwise
seems to confuse them.

Really? I've never experienced that and I've got really
packy dogs. In fact, Emmett always gets his treat last
because otherwise he swallows it whole and then tries to
inform others that he's entitled to a share of their treat.
He stays focused on me (and what's in my hands) rather than
getting grumpy about it. He gets his food bowl third and
Crow gets hers last, because it's most convenient for me.
Hasn't caused any problems.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community